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Thread: Explain to me the whole 4e is an MMO concept..

  1. #1
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    Explain to me the whole 4e is an MMO concept..

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    I don't understand why or how people connect 4e together with an MMO. The whole idea seems silly, since MMO's draw heavily upon D&D and the fantasy table top gaming genre. Bo9S and SWSE both contain design concepts that were heavily expanded upon in 4e. If the argument is against "naming" melee and ranged attacks or having powers have "abnormal" effects well spell casting does the same thing AND stories, fables, legends of heros contain rediculous feats of "martial prowess".

    Additionally naming attacks is historically accurate, if you have ever read a manual on sword play (see True Arte of Defense, translated from di Grassi or Agrippa's manual) you will notice that certain attacks have names associated with them. The Italians loved naming actions.

    What are the arguments FOR comparing 4e to an MMO?

    Please make arguments that are MMO specific; for instance the existance of "shield bash" is NOT MMO specific. Aggro, however, is MMO specific.

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    There are a couple that come to my mind.

    - After battle you are healed to maximum
    - your attack powers are the similar to a MMO or RPG game
    Hoody Hoo! Roll for initiative, Monkey-Boy!
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    People play an MMO enough, everything starts looking like one. I even had one guy telling me that "Warriors in D&D now get Taunt", despite there not being a threat/aggro/taunt mechanic in D&D, to say nothing of him forgetting that they're called "Fighters".

    Do some websearches about the reaction to 3e back in 2000, and you'll see people calling it a CCG, since that's what they were playing all the time when it came along.

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    Each class is pigeonholed archetype with no room or flexibility to branch out.

    Everyone is a spell caster of some sort yes even the fighter. The differences between the classes are just spell selections. Before you say other wise explain how does an enemy take damage if they don't attack you, or how does a halfling move an orge 3 spaces?

    You can be brought down to 1 out 300+ hp and overnight without magic you're back to full.

    Healing surge self healing that comes out of nowhere.

    Creativity is squashed as everything is narrowed and you're not allowed to use power unless for its intended purpose.

    It's all about combat, as soon as you try to do anything that's not combat or dungeon deviling it drops the ball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by griffonwing View Post
    There are a couple that come to my mind.

    - After battle you are healed to maximum
    - your attack powers are the similar to a MMO or RPG game
    Both are incorrect. You are not healed to maximum after a battle. How are the attack powers similar to an MMO? Because they are attacks? I fail to see how that is MMO specific.
    --- Merged from Double Post ---
    Each class is pigeonholed archetype with no room or flexibility to branch out. Incorrect, pigeonholed is the wrong terminology in this case. An archtype is just that, a archtypical character, the generic character, such as the 4e cleric (which has two obvious options of builds). You cannot really pigeonhole an archtype in the manner you note, it's almost redundant. Also, please provide an example how this is like an MMO and unlike older editions of D&D.

    Everyone is a spell caster of some sort yes even the fighter. The differences between the classes are just spell selections. Before you say other wise explain how does an enemy take damage if they don't attack you, or how does a halfling move an orge 3 spaces? Again incorrect. Read the PH and DMG, you will see that damage is not necessarily physical damage, it is more abstract (Very not MMO at all in fact). A halfling moves an ogre 3 spaces by pushing it? You can do that in every edition of D&D, again NOT MMO specific. Older editions had str limits for races, but some did not. The difference is in 4e there is a specific "move" designated. Citing a more specific example might help.

    You can be brought down to 1 out 300+ hp and overnight without magic you're back to full. Again read the description of HP.

    Healing surge self healing that comes out of nowhere. Read the description of healing surges.

    Creativity is squashed as everything is narrowed and you're not allowed to use power unless for its intended purpose. Incorrect, read the DMG, you are allowed to use powers for "other purposes" but it is up to the DM, JUST as every edition of D&D is up to the DM.

    It's all about combat, as soon as you try to do anything that's not combat or dungeon deviling it drops the ball. Again incorrect, read social interactions in the DMG, recommendations how to do "non-combat". In fact I believe there is a chapter called Non-Combat. How is this specific to MMO?
    Last edited by Meeki; 01-16-2009 at 01:44 PM. Reason: Automerged Double Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    Each class is pigeonholed archetype with no room or flexibility to branch out.
    Multiclass feats. Just because there isn't level-dipping anymore doesn't mean you can't do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    Everyone is a spell caster of some sort yes even the fighter. The differences between the classes are just spell selections. Before you say other wise explain how does an enemy take damage if they don't attack you, or how does a halfling move an orge 3 spaces?
    Only arcane characters have spells. Martial etc. characters also have interesting powers, so half the PHB isn't taken up by things that the martial characters don't get- why is this a bad thing? They basically took out all the useless Wizard spells and made the Fighter more interesting instead.

    Lastly, how is Divine Challenge and forced movement MMO-like? I don't know of any MMOs that have this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    You can be brought down to 1 out 300+ hp and overnight without magic you're back to full.
    Again, how is this MMO-like? 4e has disease and poison effects that don't automatically go away overnight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    Healing surge self healing that comes out of nowhere.
    You need a way to activate a healing surge- Second Wind (once per encounter) is the self-variety, with similar Arcane and Martial equivalents for healing others. No healing surges in MMOs to my knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    Creativity is squashed as everything is narrowed and you're not allowed to use power unless for its intended purpose.
    Explain? Do you mean that the rules are clearer now and you're not as able to creatively interpret or stretch them? As a DM, I see this as a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    It's all about combat, as soon as you try to do anything that's not combat or dungeon deviling it drops the ball.
    Skill Challenge encounters are non-combat, and didn't exist before 4e. What else were you hoping for?

    Yes, everything you mentioned seems like an MMO to you- I concede that this is your impression. Nothing you've mentioned actually appears in an MMO, though, and would be fairly difficult to implement in an MMO due to the differences between MMOs and tabletop.

    Edit: Ninja'd, big time

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    Wow, I want in on this debate, unfortunantly I'm pressed for time, bbl.

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    It's not a debate, it is the OP correcting people with the little green pen, when they have failed the exam question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etarnon View Post
    It's not a debate, it is the OP correcting people with the little green pen, when they have failed the exam question.
    Or, a dead horse that gets dragged out from time to time for a good beating.

    Summary as I see it:

    "How is 4e like an MMO?"

    "It isn't. Here are a dozen things that I don't like about 4e that, incidentally, do not appear in any MMO, but I will call them MMO-like because it makes for a good insult. My real reason for hating 4e is that I don't want to spend money, learn a new set of rules, be forced to play as part of a team, convert my campaign, or give up all those wonderful exploits that I have discovered in previous editions."

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    This tread is funny(not funny ha ha, but funny blah blah) because of all the "Opinions". 4e is what you make it, I see it as a half done game that was introduced to try and steal people from WOW. The attacks, power recharge, overnight healing(if your not poisoned or plagued) and the fact that every class is a different build of the same base character model, makes it a MMO to me. I disliked WOW and all the other MMO type games for the same reason. No one is really specialized, each "class" is either one thing or another, stuck in their role to no end. That is how 4e feels to me. Want to be a fighter that uses a bow, cool, but you do not get any cool powers to use for your bow. I am a wizard, but each classes powers do more damage than mine, oh good, but I can kill minions like no tomorrow, etc.

    Each to his own is how I cope with 4e. It is not my favorite edition, but I will still play it.



    In the words made famous by Boris (R.I.P) "I have a crazy plan!"

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    In 3.5 you can build a wizard to be battlefield controller, a blaster or gish. You're not forced to be a battlefield caster which you are in 4E. In many MMORPG each class is pigeonhole for one archetype. For example in FFXI a warrior, ranger, monk etc will always be a striker, a paladin will always be a defender and white mage and red mage will always be a healer errr I mean leader. And Meeki I find that hard to believe this halfling rogue would be to push a creature that is more than 5 times it's size and perhaps just as strong. Some things are just too much for a sense of disbelief.

    I have to disagree as these martial powers are just still spells and at best super natural abilities that resemble spells. You can take any martial power replace words like weapon with words like spell give it to a different class with a different name and you're done.

    As for the marks they're trying to mimic agro systems of MMOs by either giving damage by ingoring the marker or recieving penalities that virtually unexplain except by magic.

    Resting for full is done alot in MMOs infact practically every MMO I play you could do it (barring some small penalities that could come from diease that lowers your total hp).

    It punishes players creavity, gone are spells like silent image where you can cast it over a pit trap and make it seem like pit trap was somewhere else and lure enemies to the real pit trap. Or cast presiditation on the fighter to make him taste like ear wax so whatever is biting him would stop.

    Some times you want to in a ship adventure to explore new lands or create your own magical items.
    --- Merged from Double Post ---
    Quote Originally Posted by Valdar View Post
    Or, a dead horse that gets dragged out from time to time for a good beating.

    Summary as I see it:

    "How is 4e like an MMO?"

    "It isn't. Here are a dozen things that I don't like about 4e that, incidentally, do not appear in any MMO, but I will call them MMO-like because it makes for a good insult. My real reason for hating 4e is that I don't want to spend money, learn a new set of rules, be forced to play as part of a team, convert my campaign, or give up all those wonderful exploits that I have discovered in previous editions."
    Or things have pointed out that are MMO like and then have people come and claim they're not MMO like because they like 4E and want to defend it with blind faith.
    Last edited by Suzaku; 01-16-2009 at 02:45 PM. Reason: Automerged Double Post

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    Actually I'm looking for an argument that makes sense. See if there is some design they took straight from MMO's. I'm not here to praise 4e and ignore everything else, take everything on "blind faith. I asked for something VERY specific and people are giving me gripes about 4e with really no further explanation into it's connection with MMO's or RPG's.

    Suzake, the rules for ALL past editions allows a halfling to push an ogre. Plus it is very heoric like, as in stories of heroes, as in fables or fantasy books. MMO's may do this but it certainly doesn't stem from MMO's. Having something believable shouldn't really matter in this instance, if you want a more realistic game then it's a matter of taste, which I am not really interested in discussing (if one taste is better than another that is).

    The idea of aggro is straight MMO, but how is marking trying to mimic that? Is marking merely a very poor representation of aggro? I think the defender "idea" may be ripped straight from MMO's since they have alot of options to move creatures to them. That might be a valid argument.

    Again you cannot rest to full in 4e, also the HP system is more abstract in 4e rather than just straight up physical beating (which, I would argue, no edition of D&D really had HP represent that).

    The rest of your argument is opinion. Martial powers being spell like, your opinion although if you alter a martial power, change the name, take away using a weapon, and add the word spell to it I don't really see how it is anything like the original power. I think what you are getting at is they named all the attacks and gave a martial character as many options as a spell caster, which you think is MMO like?

    The archtype problem exists in many MMO's but really existed first in table top games. It is fairly restrictive in this edition, coming from the world of 3.x, but I don't think they took that from MMO's, since MMO's, and RPG's in general, took it from table top games. 4e lacks alot of character building options and you are forced to choose from a small pool of characters (early editions of D&D did the same). I wish they would have expanded the options.
    Last edited by Meeki; 01-16-2009 at 03:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    Or things have pointed out that are MMO like and then have people come and claim they're not MMO like because they like 4E and want to defend it with blind faith.
    The things you're calling MMO-like don't appear in any MMO. You find Halflings sliding Ogres to be unrealistic? I can accept that. No MMO has this though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meeki View Post
    Actually I'm looking for an argument that makes sense.

    Suzake, the rules for ALL past editions allows a halfling to push an ogre. Plus it is very heoric like, as in stories of heroes, as in fables or fantasy books. Not MMO's.
    Except these are rare occurrence but in 4E this can happen multiple times. In 3.5 an Orge has natural +9 (4 for being large and 5 from strength) while a halfling rogue -3 usually (-4 from size +1 from strength most of the time). So it'll be very rare but he won't be able to move the Orge 15 feet. And these knock backs do exist in MMOs btw... FFXI has it and I believe CoH has it.

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    Forced movement isn't knockback, just like marking isn't taunting. There's enough of a similarity that someone who plays lots of MMOs will think of one in terms of the other, but everything's going to look like an MMO at that point.

    Imagine if I do something that forces my opponent to attack me or face a consequence- would you say that this is the same as "taunting"? If so, then I guess Chess is "MMO-like" too?

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