How Much Would a Perfect Array Add to CR?

[CelestialBarbarian]

I've been wondering how much it would add to CR to give a creature base ability scores better than the elite array. Perhaps there could be a super-elite array that grants something like 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, and 13 (or maybe a 10 instead of a 13). Normally, according to the Monster Manual, giving a creature the elite array increases the CR by 1. Would a super-elite array really add another whole point of CR, meaning a total of +2?

What about a perfect array, where a creature gets a perfect 18 base in each score before adding racial adjustments. Would that be worth a total of +3 to CR, or just a +2? What do you think, and why? Thanks!

[ignimbrite]

I guess that if you are applying the highest scores to the most useful stats, like 18 to Str for a melee fighter, then elite would be the +1, super-elite a +2 and perfect a +3. But at the same time there is not much difference for a monster having super-elite of perfect as most of the useful stats would be near max with super-elite. perhaps +2 for perfect? But for every second monster with perfect add another +1 to EL.

But why would you want a monster to have perfect stats? Isn't that too unrealistic?

[CelestialBarbarian]

I guess that if you are applying the highest scores to the most useful stats, like 18 to Str for a melee fighter, then elite would be the +1, super-elite a +2 and perfect a +3. But at the same time there is not much difference for a monster having super-elite of perfect as most of the useful stats would be near max with super-elite. perhaps +2 for perfect? But for every second monster with perfect add another +1 to EL.

But why would you want a monster to have perfect stats? Isn't that too unrealistic?

Thanks Igni for the quick reply. I'm sorry I didn't get back to you quickly myself; I'm teaching at two colleges now, and I spent pretty much the whole weekend either preparing for class, working on exams, responding to students on our discussion boards (they have graded discussion board assignments), getting help from tech support, or actually teaching. Anyway...

It really started with me just wanting to raise the Intelligence of a powerful creature by +4 to give it more skill points for Knowledge skills because it's very old and knows a great deal. I also though fully advanced it and applied two powerful templates to make it very powerful, and I was thinking that I might want to give it a better array rather than just raise one ability score in order to raise the CR. Elsewhere someone suggested that since the elite array combined with a class level equals +1 CR (if you give something a PC class level it automatically gets the elite array), that the elite array by itself isn't really worth a full +1 CR. He thinks that a super-elite array then might be worth +1 by itself, but that a perfect array really goes rise to a full +2 CR. The creature though really does benefit from all 6 ability scores, so then I wonder if he might think that perfect array would be worth a full +2. You already think it's worth +3 though, so we have dissension in the ranks!

[ignimbrite]

well only a little dissension, I did concede that perhaps a full +3 was too harsh, particularly b/c there is not much difference between super-elite and perfect (for a monster). I'll reiterate by saying that perfect is much better than elite and you probably want at least a +2 adjustment to CR. If there are multiple monsters with perfect stats then you may want to work out the EL and bump it up by +1 per 2 monsters. Just because something with INT and WIS 18 will know how best to use all its abilities, terrain, etc and that really does make the encounter more difficult. Remember to roleplay the monster as a hyper intelligent being.

[CelestialBarbarian]

well only a little dissension, I did concede that perhaps a full +3 was too harsh, particularly b/c there is not much difference between super-elite and perfect (for a monster). I'll reiterate by saying that perfect is much better than elite and you probably want at least a +2 adjustment to CR. If there are multiple monsters with perfect stats then you may want to work out the EL and bump it up by +1 per 2 monsters. Just because something with INT and WIS 18 will know how best to use all its abilities, terrain, etc and that really does make the encounter more difficult. Remember to roleplay the monster as a hyper intelligent being.

Dissension is fine so long as everyone's pleasant. Anyway, he pointed out that the game claims that a CR +2 makes the creature twice as difficult: a CR 8 is supposed to be worth two CR 6. I think the system doesn't really work that way, as there's no way, for instance, that an 8th-level fighter could beat two 6th-level fighters (on average of course) and so forth. A 24th-level wizard isn't worth two 22nd-level wizards, and so forth. That makes it harder to judge just how much of a level adjustment to give something. I could give his creature (CR 38) base ability scores of 20 (before racial adjustments) and it wouldn't be twice as powerful.

[ignimbrite]

agreed

[nijineko]

i wonder by what means they were calulating that "twice" as powerful... certainly wasn't hd, nor attack potential, nor damage.... maybe they were just loopy from design exhaustion?