Speeding up the oWOD combat

[MortonStromgal]

Nope. oWoD 2e Revised (at least in Revised Vampire and Mage). Original 2e was Wits + Alertness, rolled just like any other test, collecting successes. Revised 2e was different. You rolled 1d10 and added your dots in Dex + Wits to the total. That was your initiative roll. Even though it was a slightly different system, it was easier and faster to use and track than the old way to me, so I grew to like it.

That is wrong, I don't remember that... *grabs VtM Revised, flipping through it grumbling about how wrong webhead is* see page 207 it clearly says
Everyone, player and Storyteller character alike, rolls on die and adds it to their initiative rating [Dexterity + Wits]; huh I guess I should have played more revised edition!

[Webhead]

That is wrong, I don't remember that... *grabs VtM Revised, flipping through it grumbling about how wrong webhead is* see page 207 it clearly says
Everyone, player and Storyteller character alike, rolls on die and adds it to their initiative rating [Dexterity + Wits]; huh I guess I should have played more revised edition!

Yeah, most of my players didn't believe me either. It's one of those tiny rules changes that nobody bothered to pay attention to, I guess. Of course, since Revised VtM was the first WoD book that I owned, I picked up on it right away.

You'd be surprised how resistant some people were when I tried to convince them that it really was in there.

[GoddessGood]

Many of the changes being talked about have been put into effect in Exalted 2e combat. It's a tick-based system rather than turn-based, though.

Each character's combat action goes through a 10-step process (I know, it sounds clunky, but with practice it gets quicker).
1) Declare attack: Describe your attack(s) and list any powers you want to use to improve it, if applicable. You can also decide not to attack and do some other action (see below).
2) Target declares defense: Target declares whether he will dodge, parry (block) or soak the attack(s). Each defense is a pre-calculated static value.
3) Roll attack: Roll Dex + [Archery, Martial Arts, Melee or Thrown] + Accuracy of the weapon. Hope to achieve more successes than your target's static defense value. TN in exalted is always 7, and 10's count as two successes.
4) Re-roll attack: Certain powers allow the player to re-roll, and this is done now.
5) Apply defense: Subtract a number of successes from the to-hit roll equal to the target's defense value. Note extra successes.
6) Defense "re-roll": Certain powers allow the player to improve their defense if an attack would hit but before the damage is determined. These are used now.
7) Calculate "raw" damage: Add Strength + Ability + Damage of the weapon + Extra successes. Don't forget modifiers.
8) Apply defense: Subtract the target's soak from the raw damage and roll for damage.
9) Counterattack: Certain powers allow the player (in this case the target) to make a counterattack. This is done now.
10) Apply results: Apply health levels of damage to the target, if applicable.

Like I said, clunky, but it speeds up as you become familiar with it and many of the steps are routinely skipped since they only get used when someone is using extra powers. Yes, it looks like soak is applied twice, but in practice it is not. If the defense the target declares in step 2 is soak, then all successes on the to-hit roll become "extra" successes for the purpose of calculating raw damage. The target's defense is then applied against the raw damage in step 8.

Taking an action in combat decreases your static defense values, usually -1. If I attack you, it makes me slightly less able to defend myself against other attacks. Likewise if I'm busy defending against someone else it's harder for me to defend against you. Some other actions and their associated defense penalties:
Aim (-1): Time spent aiming increases your to-hit pool (up to a limit). The focus required to aim decreases your defense.
Dash (-2): To run full out makes it hard to defend yourself.
Guard (-0): Taking a defensive stance makes you harder to hit
Attack (-1): Attacking normally imposes a -1 penalty to future defense
Flurry (Varies): Launching a flurry of actions (usually attacks) can greatly decrease your defense value. Add all penalties for all actions taken in a flurry and subtract from your defense value.

Attacking a lot can overextend you, but every time you attack, your opponent's defense goes down by 1 as well. This is called an onslaught penalty. Coordinating attacks against a single opponent drives down their defense even more. Soak values, however, do not decrease due to actions as they represent the natural hardiness of the character and any armor they are wearing.

When does my defense come back? On my next action, all defense values "refresh" back to their original totals (minus any wound penalties I may have taken).

[boulet]

That's a nice presentation of Exalted 2e combat. I admit there is quite an elegance to it, and the click based time model is very good at representing the difference between slow and fast fighters. I suppose with the proper cheat sheets, tick clock representation and a good knowledge of the system in general it makes for a very tactically challenging and epic combat. My problem now is that the learning curve seems so steep, the list of "powers" (can't remember their name right now) is such a jungle written in a very dry technical way, that without someone to show you the way it's a daunting perspective.

If this game had been the first game I bought, I honestly doubt I would still roleplay by now . But I've been inspired by your presentation and I'll read the Exalted book once more, if just to try to wrap my mind around it.

[GoddessGood]

That's a nice presentation of Exalted 2e combat. I admit there is quite an elegance to it, and the click based time model is very good at representing the difference between slow and fast fighters. I suppose with the proper cheat sheets, tick clock representation and a good knowledge of the system in general it makes for a very tactically challenging and epic combat. My problem now is that the learning curve seems so steep, the list of "powers" (can't remember their name right now) is such a jungle written in a very dry technical way, that without someone to show you the way it's a daunting perspective.

Oh yes, I won't deny that cheat sheets (items 2 and 3) and combat aids are almost required to speed up combat. I myself have a few favorites, including the infamous battle wheel that helps keep track of what tick it is (some keep track of what defense penalties each combatant is suffering). The learning curve is somewhat steep, and that's why I'm extremely thankful for the patience of my current group The powers are called Charms, and the great bulk of them don't need to be considered for a starting character as they are only accessible at higher levels. The way I keep them straight is by concentrating on the effect I want rather than what an individual Charm does. It's easier to go looking for a counterattack Charm or a damage boosting Charm than it is to read through those dozens of pages.

If this game had been the first game I bought, I honestly doubt I would still roleplay by now But I've been inspired by your presentation and I'll read the Exalted book once more, if just to try to wrap my mind around it.

It's true, I was won over by the setting and not the system. Thanks for the compliment, I'm glad to help spread the infection that is my favorite game

[Webhead]

...It's true, I was won over by the setting and not the system. Thanks for the compliment, I'm glad to help spread the infection that is my favorite game

Aren't we all! I have trouble picking just one!

[MortonStromgal]

So over the weekend I found a post (that I can't find again) of someone using exalted 2e minus the charms and ticks to speed up oWOD combat. What do y'all think of that?

[GoddessGood]

So over the weekend I found a post (that I can't find again) of someone using exalted 2e minus the charms and ticks to speed up oWOD combat. What do y'all think of that?

So ... basically the same, just using static defense values? I'd have to say that, in my opinion, the static DV mechanic greatly speeds things up. I struggle to remember what combat runs like in oWoD, but if I remember right it goes like this:

1. Attacker rolls to attack
2. Defender rolls to dodge or block
3. Excess attack successes added to damage roll
4. Attacker rolls to damage
5. Defender rolls to soak
6. Excess damage successes are health levels of damage dealt.

So making defenses static would look like this:

1. Attacker rolls to attack vs. Defender's declared defense
2. Excess attack successes added to damage roll.
3. Attacker rolls damage vs. Defender soak
4. Excess damage successes are damage dealt.

Greatly reduces the steps, but the math is still omnipresent.

[Bearfoot_Adam]

I really think that NWOD did a nice job of speeding up combat.

Att+Ability+ weapon- Defense = damage done

As I recall 1e Exalted kind of split the differrance here and had soak be automatic which is nice.

Also in owod success rolls to hit were only added to damage on ranged attacks. melee only used Str+damage

[Webhead]

...Also in owod success rolls to hit were only added to damage on ranged attacks. melee only used Str+damage

True. Mostly likely an early attempt to balance ranged weapon damage output with melee damage since ranged weapons otherwise only take dice from 1 die pool while melee weapons take from 2.

Still, considering that a handgun does 4 dice of damage while a knife in the hands of an average person only does 3 (2 + 1), it seems reasonable for a GM to rule otherwise if they want those successes to represent something akin to "critical hits" which would apply regardless of what weapon you were using.

[furashg]

Did this ever get resolved into a streamlined nWoD dice mechanics upgrade? I don't want to choose from the ideas above because I'm not a mechanic.

[MortonStromgal]

Did this ever get resolved into a streamlined nWoD dice mechanics upgrade? I don't want to choose from the ideas above because I'm not a mechanic.

Well I've been using static damage and soak so far and like it alot.