Counter-Metagaming?

[Valdar]

In your DMing experiences, have you had to put counter-metagaming measures in place? Things like lots of extra die rolls when a player starts being uber-cautious after failing a perception or other check? The most I've done is to make sure that about half the monsters are homebrew, so people can't exploit their weaknesses without rolling the appropriate skill first-

[Webhead]

I don't "counter-metagame" exactly, but I avoid making my games overly predictable and thus easily exploited by metagaming. As you mentioned, I tend to do interesting things with monsters to prevent the PCs from relying on "Monster Manual mentality". On rare occasions I will use those metagaming elements specifically against the PCs, which I guess is counter-metagaming. They go into a fight expecting one thing only to discover that they aren't exactly the monsters they anticipated. But most of that is because I like my players to be surprised on occasion or to reconsider jumping to hasty conclusions.

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

When i DM "open" campaigns(everything allowed, official, unofficial, & homebrew), i let the players know that they can expect the same from the baddies. They realize right away that caution is the better part of valor. Keeping things unpredictable, as Webhead suggests, is also a very important part in DMing. As i like to say: everything isnt always what it seems, so be smart.

[Foki Firefinger]

Counter-meta gaming? Interesting. The real world in never predictable, so why should the fantasy world be. Give personally it to the monsters (they have feelings too!) Why make things too normal for the people in the group-- dependable can be boring. As a dm/gm I roll dice randomly just to keep the players on their toes. Evil monsters with a bad reputation dont alway have to be evil. I ran a lost city in the mountains call Sanctionary where the so-called evil monsters lives in peace and lead a lawful good existance. They had a resident red dragon named Farly who was lawful good due to be raised by a lawful good mage (the dragon also wore huge spectacles, due to being near-sighted). I also look at the monsters point of view. Here comes this group of adventurers breaking into their homes, killing even the females and children, wiping everyone out and rob them of treasures, stores and other goods. And in some cases harvesting parts of their bodies (i.e.-- dragons blood, goblins ears, troll flesh, etc. and so forth). So I guess that lawful good adventurers group are just a bunch of blood thirsty killers bent on wiping out nonhuman races.

[Webhead]

Exactly. I like playing with players' perceptions. I once had an "evil" monster (an Umber Hulk) kidnap a villager. The party went to "smite the evil-doer" and in doing so, the discovered that the Umber Hulk had actually been duped by a greedy wizard. The wizard stole its egg and convinced the monster that the village had done it and that if it kidnapped a villager, it could ransom the egg back.

[Foki Firefinger]

I try to encourage my group to alway investigate all the facts before acting. The group had been sent to kill the half-ogre leader of the city of Sanctionary by the "High queen" of the kindom. What they didnt know was that in my world I have a race based on the Indra (I hope I spelled it right) of the Dragonlance world in which the ogre race was of a fair and beautiful race that was cursed by the gods with the Indra being the only ones of the race not really altered by the curse. In my world, the Merithogellians (like the Indra race) was cursed by the gods and were now ogres, but once in a while, a female ogre would give birth to a fair Merithogellian. Once such Merithogellian worked her way up into the world as a chaotic good fighter who evently wed a king. After producing one half ogre offspring, in desperate she made a deal with the high king (who was one very powerful mage). Being very beautiful, she seduce him and let him have his way if he would place a spell on her that would insure that all of her future childtren were Merithogellian and not ogres. Which worked, but she gave birth to the high king's bastard child-- a daugther. Being that the high king has no suitable heirs (most being assinated by rival kingdoms), the high king declares the girl his heir and later gave up the throne to persue a life of researching magic. The new queen gave birth to a child apppearing to be half-ogre and abandoned the child to die in the wilderness. The former king found the child and took him to Sanctionary to be raised in safety. Years later, the queen discovered that the true heir to the throne still lived and duped the group to assinate the supposenly evil half-ogre (who was really a lawful good figher/mage). Well, in the end, the group spares the heir's life and joins him on claiming the throne.

[tesral]

I Well, in the end, the group spares the heir's life and joins him on claiming the throne.

Classic plot, I like. I don't need to counter metagame. My players are well aware of the issue and counter it themselves. Some times with a great deal of humor playing character that don't know things about my world that the player knows perfectly well.

[gdmcbride]

I used to do all sorts of counter-metagaming maneuvers. Fake dice rolls. Fake miniature setups. Note passing. The works.

But as I get a little older, I realize this -- the only person you are fooling here is yourself.

If your players want to cheat or meta-game or whatever you call it, they can and they will.

But really, who are they cheating? Would role-playing games be interesting if you weighted your d20 so it always rolled a 20?

Yes, if I use a published module, they can run out, buy it and read it. But does that make the game easier or does it just ruin the surprises?

So, I trust my players. And almost without exception my trust is rewarded by brilliant ideas I would never come up with on my own.

Gary

[Skunkape]

Classic plot, I like. I don't need to counter metagame. My players are well aware of the issue and counter it themselves. Some times with a great deal of humor playing character that don't know things about my world that the player knows perfectly well.

Everyone in the groups I play in do the same thing. Granted there sometimes are times that we want to meta, but for the most part, we don't. Using skill rolls to determine what the characters know about a subject is a good way to ensure metagaming doesn't occur and if you've got good players, who want to have fun, then they'll go along with you on it.

[boulet]

I used to do all sorts of counter-metagaming maneuvers. Fake dice rolls. Fake miniature setups. Note passing. The works.

Been there, done that.

And I had an epiphany too. Except in my case the realization was more like : some people are disarming a few aspects of the game by "meta-gaming" (and I use the quotes because for me this isn't as clear cut a definition as for others), but do I really care ? Is it ruining my fun ? Rarely. Is it spoiling other players fun ? In my experience, it is rare too. As a parallel, I would compare with tragedy and other forms of narration : Is the pleasure of the audience lessened by the foresight of Oedipus destiny ? No, actually the implacable fate is almost like an actor in the story. Does drama rely much on some hidden knowledge that the author might have and delivers (or not) to his audience ? Well different type of drama may rely on different techniques, but except maybe for mystery, secret isn't absolutely necessary. If it was, then why would we enjoy reading/watching the same story over and over again ?

So no I don't bother with meta-gaming, until it becomes an elephant in the porcelain shop, which for me happens rarely.

[MortonStromgal]

I think to some of it falls on the DM, the more you can engage your PCs with NPCs and interesting dialogs the more your PCs will stay in character (rather than roll gather information). Sure some will still metagame but the DM has then set the tone at leased.

[nijineko]

i like to change things around just for the fun of it, not specifically to counter metagaming... but just to see "that" look on the player's faces. ^^

like the half-celestial gelatinous cube with monk levels.... enhanced speed, woot!

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

i like to change things around just for the fun of it, not specifically to counter metagaming... but just to see "that" look on the player's faces. ^^

like the half-celestial gelatinous cube with monk levels.... enhanced speed, woot!

Now that's evil. I'd love to have been a fly on the way when you described that creature to the party. LOL

[Valdar]

i like to change things around just for the fun of it, not specifically to counter metagaming... but just to see "that" look on the player's faces. ^^

like the half-celestial gelatinous cube with monk levels.... enhanced speed, woot!

I have considered the Gelatinous Cube Ninja- cubes are already practically invisible as it is- they could repel down from the ceiling of a cavern, engulf a poor unfortunate, then vanish into the dark...

[nijineko]

of course, the cube takes improved trip and improved grapple....

and if you want to see what my monkeys are up to in campaign, click here....