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Thread: Ask a GM [09/14/08]: "Evil" Campaigns

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    Grimwell - 'because people tend to think that "evil campaign" is analogous to "go crazy and kill each other".'
    you just pointed out the biggest reason for why a lot of evil games fail.
    Over the years that I have been gaming, I have seen this trap cause a group of even good friends to fall apart.

    Your advice is sound and welcomed: something that I shall try to remember to do in all my games.

    Fun is something that should always be the biggest factor in any Game: Good or Evil.
    If you are not having fun running the game, then why are you doing it?
    Step down and see if someone else wants to wear those heavy DM Boots.

    There is only one real problem that I constantly run into: and that the players will resist being told what to do - even by the DM.

    This means that a lot of my games are hinged on simply putting out there, and see if the Party goes after it. If not, then I wait until they create a reason to go do something, and I go from there.

    Now, I will admit, right here and now, that I am a gaming addict: I would rather have random dungeon crawls with a bunch of Munchkins (I found out that there was more then one type) then to sit at home bored out of my mind.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    gdmcbride - I like your rules,and they do make for an easier game on the part of the DM.
    But remember that Chaotic Evil does not mean insane.
    It just means that these individuals are more out for themselves then the group.

    Like Venom {CE} (first appearance) compaired to Doc Ock {LE} and how they could even work together for short periods of time, to achieve a common goal. Of course once one of them had what they wanted, they would try and betray the other: that's what makes them evil. Only the nature of comic books prevents them from killing each other - instead showing bandaged wounds and such. Don't want to upset the kids - or give them ideas - don't you know.

    But the smart CE villain is patient and will follow rules that either make sense, or will get them killed if they don't: They don't make a betrail unless they know (or at least believe) for a fact that it will gain them the most benefit.

    However, there should be a very clearly defined limits for the Player(s) of these CE Characters: Over all game fun.

    This is where that Player Maturity that I talked about in my last post comes into play.
    All the players must be able to keep their personal feelings seperate from those of their Character. If it starts to fall apart, the DM calls for a Time Out - and everyone takes a break, and when everyone returns to the table, the DM should make sure that the personal issues are resolved before resuming the game.

    Most of the time, I run "Good Adventuring Games" (finding Players that do heroes are actually rather rare, sadly) and I only use CE beings as plot-related motivators.
    This means that a lot of these CE being s are short term threats, only a few have survived long enough to become long lasting villains.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My Ultimate Gaming Fantasy is to actually have two mature groups: One Playing heroes, and the other playing Villains. Each group has a seperate game day - where maybe one Villain gueststars in the Hero Group and vice versa, and once a month they all get together and fight it out over who will Rule The World.

    A long time ago (in a city far away) I created a roleplaying intense Group Idea.
    The Villains Guild: This semi-secret organization was a gathering of villains of all types to better plan on how to Conquer the World.
    In truth, what they ended up doing was nothing so much as undermining each other.

    Each Player would have their Character stand up (giving a full description of them - appearance, clothing, weapons and equipment, etc) and walk to the front of the theater and stand before the crowd, raise one hand and wiggle their fingers in a claw-like fashion while saying "Muhahahaha" as sincerly (or not) as the Player desired. Female Characters could cackle while doing the Creeping Claw. This was the "secret handshake" of the guild.

    Once done, each Player would - In Character - give details of how they were recently defeated by some Hero or band of Adventurers followed by shaking a clenched fist and saying "Curses !" and all the other members were supposed to say this in response to show agreement. They aren't forced to, and a lot will only say it as a token statement.
    (What? They are a bunch of egotistical villains !!)

    Next up the Character would set forth their Grand Sceme for what they had planned to do next. Others may or may not give advise for some of the more obvious pitfalls of their plans. And of course, at least one of them will tip off a group of Heroes (or at least goody-two-shoes Adventures) to go and undermine that other villian.

    Battles between Villains are not allowed within the meeting place of the Guild, and is backed by a Great Wyrm Blue Dragon, as well as all the Evil Deities.

    But, what happens outside the Guild Meeting is fair game !!!

    The only place that this still exists (though it lies dormant for now) is in my PBP Site: The Dragon's Den and Lairs.

    Players that are interested in exploring the possibilities are welcome to join. Be willing to show me and the other players that you are a serious and mature Player, and we can open up another section of the Site:
    If enough people join and post - I can open up the entire site.

    But I would need at least one experienced and fair DM to be an Assistant Moderator to be there for when I was not. I have strange standards, though. Any DM interested in this can add me to their Yahoo Instant Messanger.

    Check my profile for the link and contact info.

    Thanks for reading all of this.

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    Arch Lich Thoth-Amon is offline Cursed by the Gods
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonDM View Post
    Grimwell - 'because people tend to think that "evil campaign" is analogous to "go crazy and kill each other".'
    you just pointed out the biggest reason for why a lot of evil games fail.
    Over the years that I have been gaming, I have seen this trap cause a group of even good friends to fall apart.
    Your 1st paragraph says it all.
    Last edited by Farcaster; 09-19-2008 at 02:50 PM. Reason: Full quote of previous post not needed.
    Thoth-Amon, Lord of the Underworld and the Undead
    Once you know what the magician knows, it's not magick. It's a 'tool of Creation'. -Archmagus H.H.
    The first step to expanding your reality is to discard the tendency to exclude things from possibility. - Meridjet

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    Perhaps, Thoth-Amon - but why would I stop there when I can overexplain like the Classic Villain is supposed to ?

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    Arch Lich Thoth-Amon is offline Cursed by the Gods
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    No arguments there. (;
    Thoth-Amon, Lord of the Underworld and the Undead
    Once you know what the magician knows, it's not magick. It's a 'tool of Creation'. -Archmagus H.H.
    The first step to expanding your reality is to discard the tendency to exclude things from possibility. - Meridjet

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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonDM View Post
    gdmcbride - I like your rules,and they do make for an easier game on the part of the DM.
    But remember that Chaotic Evil does not mean insane.
    It just means that these individuals are more out for themselves then the group.
    Thanks for the compliment! I'm glad my rules were helpful.

    From the SRD entry on alignment. The emphasis added is mine.

    Chaotic Evil, "Destroyer"
    A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.
    I think by that definition we can safely label anyone 'vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable' as insane. The emphasized portion of the alignment definition also illustrates why it makes for poor campaign play. Constantly fending of attacks from your fellows and underlings quickly becomes repetitive and tiresome.

    An inherent problem with chaotic evil campaigns is the issue of game balance. Since all the PCs will be of roughly equal strength in most RPGs no one of them can dominate the others. They will not have force enough to demand obedience.

    Ultimately, I am not trying to tell you that you shouldn't run a 'chaotic evil' campaign. Of course it is your game and ultimately if you are having fun, that's all that matters. What I am saying is that I have never seen a 'chaotic evil' campaign succeed. They always seem to degenerate into the 'go crazy and kill each other' style of play you rightly speak against.

    Gary

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    Oh, by no means was I advicating an all CE party!

    I tend to play Devil's Advicate a lot, and I like a good Debate.
    I tend to view things a little differently then a lot of other people, as well.

    A majority of LE with only a few NE and only one CE would be best, if the CE was to be allowed at all. The entire party jumping the CE's arse should be enough of a deterant to "go crazy".

    My point there was that if you view Chaos as being an expression of Individuality instead of a Cosmic Force of Destruction; and someone that does things at random, then even CE can be played as not insane.

    These Chaotic people tend to be more the Lone Wolf type, but even wolves can travel in packs for protection. Sure, they may want to be the leader of the group, but no one will follow someone that just gives orders at random, and kills anyone that questions them. These kind of leaders don't last long. Which is why (in D&D) Orcs don't ever really pose a threat to the overall Allied Rulers, they can't keep a leader in charge long enough to make the difference in the long run.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Consider a Pirate Ship as the ultimate expression of CE that has to work together. The very nature of the Sea makes sure that these otherwise greedy and violent individuals work together and follow the orders of the Captain: Who was chosen by the rest of the crew for his knowledge of how to run a ship, as well as hopefully making the right choices that would lead to Treasure for all.

    Even the Captain has to worry about being thrown into the deadly sea, and even the most bada$$ed person can't fight everyone on the ship - because killing too many of them means not being able to run the ship, or causing the ship to sink, killing everyone.

    The best for a defeated individual that can be hoped for is to be marooned - since there is a chance (no matter how small) of being found and rescued by another ship.

    But even all of those deterants are not enough to stop all of them from Plotting against each other, and occasionally killing one or two members of the crew - which is why Pirate Ships were always looking for new Crew Members - even if they had to Shanghai them.

    There are, of course, "Honorable" Pirates and Pirate Captains.
    But just because they are honorable does not mean that they need to be Lawful, just that it's easiest for Lawful people to be Honorable.

    Remember, it's only cheating if you get caught !!
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    It is easy for the DM to simply resort to making a super bad-a$$ed Evil Being, and there are those that do this even for their "Good" Games.

    But to me, this is extremely lazy on the part of the DM.
    You have an entire World at your disposal and there should be things in it that are already there that should be able to deal with even powerful PCs.
    I don't care if you are a 21st level Wizard, if the entirety of a Nation attacks you, they are going to eventually kill you. Imagine 1,000,000 fighter-types, 100,000 of each other Class, and at least 10,000 spellcasters showing up to kick your butt ! And if you do the normal "For every 100, there is a Leader of up to 3 levels higher." and do that for each set of 100, there could very well be another Epic Level NPC for each Class that showed up.

    But, doing things this way is also a pain in the arse for the DM.
    And I can understand that not everyone wants to do it.
    Heck - even I don't want to do it, since it would take me at least a week to just figure out how many there were of each level for each Class.

    However, making it know to the Players that there will be consequences for their actions and behavior will make the job of the DM much easier:
    Good consequences are called Rewards and Bad consequences are called Punishments. And making sure that these are applied into the game makes all the difference in the World. The Reactions of the NPCs should change as the PCs do things, and the Reputation that they recieve should proceed them almost everywhere they go. The Higher level the PCs are, the farther they are known about.

    For the most part, only Oriental Adventures really incorporated Reputation into the overall Game: Honor. Even the most Evil Characters were still treated with the same respect as their Good counterparts, so long as their Honor was intact. Loss of Honor hurt a PC a lot, and not just because if they were Lawful they could be required to kill themselves. Even Chaotic people had to be careful no to lose Honor, lest they attract the disfavor of everyone around them. Which is why a lot of Chaotic people wore masks to conseal their faces - so that they could not lose Honorable 'face'.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    But even LE can have problems avoiding the temptation of not betraying each other.

    If the Players can be convinced that they need to work together to defeat the powerful guardians of the treasures (or other goals) and to only strike at each other through indirect methods - the less connectable to them, the better - then this can make for a great Game.

    All of these things (Social responses to Reputation and knowing that any PC in the group might be needed later), makes the Players really think about whether or not to leave another Party Member in the trap that they set off, or to rescue them now to make sure that they can achieve the end goal.

    Blackmail - and other such things are still allowed, of course.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    There are still a lot of things that I need to learn as a DM, for all the fact that I have been running for many years.
    Last edited by DragonDM; 09-21-2008 at 09:53 AM. Reason: removed extra words, and added small related comments.
    Underestimate No One.

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    I played in one where I was a mongolian barbarian. It was fun, but we ended up fighting 95% evil creatures anyway, so I wound up just being a borderline insane Asian thug. If you are going to run an evil campaign, let the PCs be bad! Give them some really good creatures to destroy.

    I played another campaign that was all Drow, but the DM kept forgetting we were underground, so he'd say things like "You wake up in the morning" and we would get all confused. That sort of thing can happen in any campaign, but it makes it really hard to be evil if the campaign world is consistently inconsistent. I had a really lazy, alcoholic, sadistic drow all ready to be bad, but the setting was so foreign it was hard to get into it.

    Let the PCs be bad.
    Give them a familiar setting to be bad in.

    Case in point, Vampire the Masquerade. Run a Sabbat campaign, and let your PCs scare you with the things they want to do in their own home town... Like nailing passengers to the ceiling of a subway car if they refuse to give up their seat...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obah Bason View Post
    Let the PCs be bad.
    (snip)
    Case in point, Vampire the Masquerade. Run a Sabbat campaign, and let your PCs scare you with the things they want to do in their own home town... Like nailing passengers to the ceiling of a subway car if they refuse to give up their seat...
    Wow. Nice evil deed, that. --^

    I do D&D the most, so I'm kinda limited in the WoD regard: I'll place comments about things that might be done to enhance the D&D World(s) later.

    My ideas for WoD, in response to that Evil Deed: --v

    Letting them do it does not mean that they get away with it.
    The first time, sure: "Puts the cattle in place. Hahaha."

    The second time might cause one of the people on the train to suddenly become Supernatural themselves: Hunter, Werewolf, even a Mage - or anything else the GM wants to throw at the group.
    * After all - Highly emotional events create energy, and every Supernatural being wants it - even though they have different names for the same thing: Gnosis (Werewolves), Quintessence (Mages), Glammer (Changlings).

    And eventually, someone should take offense to that first action:
    Example: a mortal cop with high ranks in Occult, that hates to see people killed because they can't fight back. This cop does everything to put together all the clues gather by forensics - even when the other cops refuse to believe the conclusion that the evidence leads to.
    The cop then arm themselves to take on, and take down, these perps.

    This gives the Players an antagonist to fight against, and this is when they can really start exploring the darker side of ther own Characters.
    * Imagine where each of the Vampire Players were trying to manipulate the cop into "busting" one of the other Vampire Players - and only later realizing that they needed to band together to eliminate this mutual threat...

    And, as the above "hero" battles against these supernatural evil creatures, they might gain special abilities and powers - like becoming a Hunter.

    The cop might need to get some Allies to deal with the fact that the Vampires (players) are forming into a pack. Imagine a mixed group of supernaturals trying to take down the Vampires: 1 Mummy, 1 Mage (thanatos order ?), 1 Hunter, 1 Garu, and maybe a Changling.
    Or whatever.

    Portraying each of these things correctly - all at the same time - is the biggest challenge for the GM.

    Personally, I know that I can't do it - I might be able to pull off two at a time. Which is why I find it much easier to ask other Players to take on these Roles, and that frees me up to moderate and think of the next plot twist for the overall Game.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    In D&D, playing a Monster Race is the easiest way to be evil:
    after all, all you have to do is have your Character(s) find any of the Allied Good Races, and do bad things to them.... Right?

    Well, sure - if all your doing is a Reverse Dungeon-Crawling kind of Campaign.

    But, if you are wanting to create more of the feel of a Living World Campaign, it gets a little more tricky.

    To me - One of the most profound actions and statements in the Forgotten Realms Campaign, that really drove home the fact that it was not Race that determines Good and Evil, but personal actions and belief:
    When the evil Human, Artemis Entreri (Thief/Assassin) was battling the good Drow, Drizzt Do'Urden (Fighter/Ranger/more) and they looked at each other and saw that the other could have been themsevles - that they were inversed reflections in the Mirror.
    It was this sudden understanding, that caused the fight to end, for they were each evenly matched in combat skills.

    Even Evil Beings still have personal goals, and limits for what they are willing to do to obtain what they desire. Examples can include, but not be limited to: "Killing adults is fine, but leave the kids alone." * "Having a slave-girl is alright, but raping her is wrong."

    --
    Don't mind all the posts, folks - I just have a lot of time on my hands.
    Underestimate No One.

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    I have run a few evil adventures, just one session in one night. I had a very powerful, very evil leader in place to keep the PCs in line. I had a definite goal for the group. As soon as the goal was achieved, and the leader turned a blind eye for a second, the PCs were at each other's throats. That was the type of group I was DMing for though. I have tossed around the idea of running a dual campaign where the PCs have two characters: one good, one evil. Both characters act independently in the same basic area, in this case a city. They do their business on either side of town. This is really complicated and requires twice as much prep as a regular game, not to mention some dedicated players. For example, one player has a paladin character working for the church on one side of town, meanwhile, on the other side of town the same player has a rogue character working for an evil cult. One thing that I think would make evil campaigns more fun and acceptable is the idea that an evil character can be redeemed and made good. Because most players are used to keeping the same alignment throughout their careers, it's hard to imagine an evil PC seeing the err of his/her ways, so it takes a very mature group of players and DM to set something like that up. Not to mention that an evil cleric who turns his/her back on an evil deity is going to face some very serious challenges in the very near future.
    Go Fast, take Chances, and for Tier's sake, Don't Wear a Helmet!

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    I'm the exception?

    I have been in many evil campaigns. I've organized and run them as well. After reading many of the entries I have found my experiences quite different. It may have been the group of players or the style, I'm not sure.

    There were several CE members of the group, but they all feared one member of the group as he portrayed himself to be a very potent fellow. As a result it was some time before any challenged him. The key was good role playing. The one that made his character "appear" uber took lead. There was one that continuously undermined them by stealing and such and building his own wealth. There were assassination plots and it all made for great fun.

    Basically it was a game of survival as each attempted to protect themselves and slay the others and such. It was all a good laugh.

    Other games resulted in conquering huge areas and all party members taking control of some land and then defending it as part of the whole empire.

    I guess I've found that one of the players usually has an inventive means of quelling the others and taking lead of the group. Not that he always lives to see his goals completed...but he sure rules the roost for some time while furthering his means by providing for the others. A strong warrior that provides work for the rogue to always do can usually keep him in-line sort of thing. Or the wizard they are all afraid will turn them into toads or crush them with his Greatsword. (Long story, but he got a good roll and it sealed his position as leader)

    Anyway, I'd recommend an evil group so long as you all know it is a stand alone survival game and make it fun! It is like playing minis with your character. Defend to live!!!
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    Yeah I played in an Evil Campaign once. Every time we rested at night someone wouldn't wake up. Apparently there are monsters in evil campaigns that like to sneak in at night and slit one persons throats and then leave.

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    Thanks for all the responses guys. I like Evil campaigns as I think it takes more skill to be a credible villain then a credible hero.


    Supporters tend to argue with me that roleplaying is separate from the system and can be strongly supported in any game. I always encourage them to write a history for their iron token in monopoly and discuss the motivations for passing go.
    - Engar

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    Arch Lich Thoth-Amon is offline Cursed by the Gods
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rostoker View Post
    Thanks for all the responses guys. I like Evil campaigns as I think it takes more skill to be a credible villain then a credible hero.
    How right you are.
    Thoth-Amon, Lord of the Underworld and the Undead
    Once you know what the magician knows, it's not magick. It's a 'tool of Creation'. -Archmagus H.H.
    The first step to expanding your reality is to discard the tendency to exclude things from possibility. - Meridjet

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    Villians by Necessity

    There is a book by Eve Forward called "Villians by Necessity" (Tor 1995) where the final battle between Good and Evil has been over for awhile- Good won. Unfortunately the days are getting longer, nights shorter, spells change people into productive members of society, and in short, things are starting to stagnate as they move ever closer to the Light. Eventually the world will go out in a blaze of sunshiney-Goodness unless someone DOES something about it.

    Enter a handful of 'evil' characters who band together (loosely at first) to attempt to overthrow the status quo and bring Evil back for the 'good' of all!

    http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/geekend/?p=418

    Years ago a DM of mine did something similar. It had to be about the same time this book came out (1995) so I presume he read it. We all created Villians (mine was a noble 'paladin' named Levoy Nathanial Draeven who 'pretended' to be Good on the surface but had an evil agenda) and banded together to awaken the sleeping (or dead) Evil or Chaotic Gods to prevent the forces of Law and Chaos from creating a world where nothing Changed or evolved. The presumption is that without Chaos or adversity, nothing will evolve- there for everything will eventual run down- entropy if you will.

    By and large we got along well enough together though there was some party in-fighting (mostly arguing, etc.). We all had our own sub-agendas but we knew that we were better off working together. We even managed to eventually wake up enough of the old evil gods that we greased the wheels of evil back into ACTION and could count our mission a success. All the while we made sure that we were well represented and rewarded for our efforts, of course.

    Overall, the game went well. Having an ULTIMATE goal as compeling as SAVING the world and therefore ourselves was a good motivator for group cooperation.

    I have also GM'd a couple of Evil campaigns with varying degrees of success. I think the main thing is to have mature players (mature in action. not necessarily in 'age') who won't use it as an excuse to back-stab and party in-fight. One of my groups went down in flames when they decided not to listen to the 'advice' of their Patron God- Arioch. Their killing of a couple of the party for spite and pure evil earned them a quick destruction by Arioch after they had been warned repeatedly by him to not use violence against each other until the mission was complete...

    I had another campaign where Evil had won years before and Good was just now re-emerging. I had the players first play the Evil group investigating the actions of a Rebel force of some kind and then had the players switch and play the Good party. Ever so often they would switch back. That was a great game!!!

    Laters,

    Russell
    Severan Lawbringer

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    I found the idea of the Savage Worlds setting "Necessary Evil" to be really intriguing. There was a great battle between the super heroes and the super villains...and the super villains won. All the super heroes were killed and the villains are free to finally "rule the world". But there is one problem. Shortly afterward, a race of hostile aliens arrives and is attempting to enslave the Earth. With all the super heroes dead, now the only people who can stop the invaders are the villains.

    Something like that could be fun.
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