Ask a GM [09/14/08]: "Evil" Campaigns

[Panthro82]

There is no Country that is CN. True Anarchy is a state of constant warfare with the rest of the world.

I honestly believe that North Korea would constitute the title of CN. I have read an article about their prison system which made me sick to my stomach. The guards there routinely will stomp on pregnant women's stomach's. If someone swears in public, not only are they arrested, but their whole family is as well. There are swarms of children in their prisons. Oh yea and if a pregnant woman actually gives birth in the prisons there, the newborn baby is murdered right in front of her. These prisoners aren't there for much more than littering either. Any country that does these things to itself almost borders evil.

Did I mention their numerous threats to not only our country(United States) that they have technology for nuclear warfare and they intend on using it?

Also there is a country that is CE...Iran. Read up about them. They have had thousands of suicide bombers in their own streets and in neighboring countries, killing countless innocent people. All because of their crazed belief system. They as a whole are psychotic.

The last post said that Spider-Man would be NG because of the fact that he would maintain tranquility in New York through any means possible, but part of being neutral is to not act simply because it is the good thing to do. To be neutral you, in fact, would only act to serve yourself. You can count on 1 hand how many times Peter Parker(Spider-Man) has acted simply to serve himself. Almost all of his actions have been made because of Uncle Ben, Aunt Mae, and Mary Jane. The very word Neutral has multiple meanings within its definition, which is why Spider-Man could never honestly be considered Neutral anything. I think Spider-Man/Peter Parker is one character that does not fit into any D&D alignment.If he does the only one I can think of is Chaotic Good.

[cigamnogard]

The last post said that Spider-Man would be NG because of the fact that he would maintain tranquility in New York through any means possible, but part of being neutral is to not act simply because it is the good thing to do. To be neutral you, in fact, would only act to serve yourself. You can count on 1 hand how many times Peter Parker(Spider-Man) has acted simply to serve himself. Almost all of his actions have been made because of Uncle Ben, Aunt Mae, and Mary Jane.

So, if not NG - then what?

[Panthro82]

Sorry cig I noticed that I hadn't picked out his alignment so I went back and edited my last post

[cigamnogard]

No worries, however I would - myself and my own opnion - put him somewhere in between CG and NG.

[Panthro82]

yea he is probably the toughest hero to put into an alignment. He's complex. Thats one of the reasons why he is my all-time fav.

[TheRageOfGaia]

Spider-Man is definitely Neutral Good.

"Neutral good is known as the "Benefactor" alignment. A neutral good character is guided by his conscience and typically acts altruistically, without regard for or against Lawful precepts such as rules or tradition. A neutral good character may cooperate with lawful officials but does not feel beholden to them. A doctor that treats soldiers from both sides in a war would be considered neutral good."

Wolverine is hard to classify, for me. I guess he would be True Neutral, or Lawful Neutral, because even though he is capable of evil, and sometimes does it, he follows a certain code of honor.

[Panthro82]

"A neutral good character will keep his word to those who are not evil and will lie only to evil-doers. He will never attack an unarmed foe"

This is part of the reason why I do not think Spider-man fits into neutral good. Even if every definition you can find gives examples and Spider-Man is amongst them, perhaps either they should read their own definition, or read the comics...Spider-man/Peter Parker HAS lied to people who weren't evil doers, and he HAS attacked unarmed foes in the past...

[TheRageOfGaia]

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Putting aside the irony inherent in the fact that "only a sith deals in absolutes" is an absolute, Obi-Wan is right.

This Spider-Man argument, to me, proves that you can't be your alignment 100% of the time. But, if you look at the definition for Chaotic Good, I think you'll find that Spider-Man fits better into Neutral Good.

"Chaotic good is known as the "Beatific," "Rebel," or "Cynic" alignment. A chaotic good character favors change for a greater good, disdains bureaucratic organizations that get in the way of social improvement, and places a high value on personal freedom, not only for oneself, but for others as well. Most elves are chaotic good, as are some fey.
Starbuck from Battlestar Galactica, Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly, and Robin Hood are examples of chaotic good individuals.[7] Eladrin are the outsider race representing chaotic good."

Favors change for a greater good. Yeah. That's Spidey.

"Rebel?" Spider-Man is a rebel, but does he choose to be a rebel, like a chaotic person does, or is he made into a rebel by the fact that he doesn't put any particular faith in law or chaos?

"Cynic?" Definitely not. Sarcastic. Yeah. But not cynical. Unless, I guess, he's going off to find his black costume. But we all have slumps.


Does the webhead disdain bureaucratic organizations? I don't think he has any dislike for them, he works with them when THEY allow it. He joined the 50 state initiative, for example. Does he place a high value on personal freedom? Not any more than any other American, I don't think. Not in the way that Malcolm Reynolds, or V from v for Vendetta do.

Also, another question, is it possible to discern the alignment of someone who is insane? Is, for example, Magneto Lawful Evil? Or does he just seem that way because he's a megalomaniac?

[Panthro82]

I just think that the alignments are too broad for characters as diverse as Spider-Man. I genuinely believe that he doesn't fit into any alignment. If you read all of his comics, you start to realize that any alignment you place him in there are numerous instances where he proves he is not that alignment. Very, very cool character. I agree with CIG, if they had an alignment in between NG & CG he would definitely be that.

[TheRageOfGaia]

Yeah, he definitely hovers somewhere between, depending on who is writing him. THAT, I think also has an effect on his character. It gets even more confusing if you try to throw the movie or cartoon versions which are all closer to LG

[cigamnogard]

No worries, however I would - myself and my own opnion - put him somewhere in between CG and NG.

[DragonDM]

Humm. Politics is not my strongest forte.
To me:

North Korea would be more LE as a Government and NE as citizens – then anything else.
The actions that you have described being allowed is evil. Especially since I am sure that a lot of the new mothers were most likely rape victims.

Iran I could see as a NE government, with a lot of CE factions within.

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I would say that Spidey is normally NG, with times of slipping into CG - especially when he wants to help a personal friend/relative.

Blacksuit Spidey was more NE towards the end of that sage.
Venom started out being CE, with slight Insane tendencies - and slowly became NE.

To me: The fact that spidey needed these people to really kick him into being a hero, is what kept him from being self motivated enough to be consistantly CG.

Also, another question, is it possible to discern the alignment of someone who is insane? Is, for example, Magneto Lawful Evil? Or does he just seem that way because he's a megalomaniac?

Another Complex Character. I normally list Magneto as being LN/E.
Rarely does he go out of his way to target normal Humans, and focuses on government & military that are usually out to get Mutants to begin with.

Does he sometimes do evil acts, in the name of his envisioned Greater Good?

Yes. Like in the 1st X-Men Movie, when he tried to transform all the Humans in NYC into Mutants. Especially when he was willing to sacrifice young Rogue, instead of himself - to do so.

In the comic books, I have only seen Magneto really go insane once.
(Please note that I no longer collect comics, and have not read every issue)

When Wanda: The Scarelet Witch, was believed to be murdered.
It took every single X-Men member fighting against Magneto, just to get him to stop long enough to talk to Xavier about what the problem was.
The story ended with Wanda being alive, but I don't recall the exact means that she was 'rescued' to be revived.

There are other times that Magneto seems to slip over the Edge of Sanity (having a high Ego is as close to being a Megalomaniac as the two ends of the same straight magnet) - What usually prevents him: is his own Code of Honor, and the realization (when it is pointed out) that he is so close to that edge, and then retreating from it. It is only because he is so powerful that it sometimes requires Epic Battles against him to get him to listen long enough, to accept that he could be wrong in his viewpoint.

Even Xavier has been known to slip off that Sanity Edge (not surprising for someone that can literally hear everyone's thoughts around him within about a mile radius allthetime), and during these times the X-Men are surprised to find Magneto willing to aid Xavier in returning to relative 'normal'.

Panthro82 part of being neutral is to not act simply because it is the good thing to do. To be neutral you, in fact, would only act to serve yourself.

This is what CN is supposed to be, but is so rarely portrayed as such.
“I do random acts - to the point that I need someone else to roll 1d100 to determine what I do this round.” is what I end up seeing. Which is insane, not Chaotic: Just like running up and punching every person you meet in the face as hard as you can (maximum Power Attack) and then running away as fast as you can – is not CE, it is also Insane. This behavior will provoke even the TN person to do something to stop you – even if it is only to complain to the local government to please make you stop.

Totally self-serving acts are bordering on Evil, since you will not care how the effects of what you are doing affect other people.

[Panthro82]

Yea Magneto is another really interesting character that I don't believe truly fits into any one alignment. I have always liked Magneto alot, and I look forward to his movie, so everyone can see the days when Magneto and Xavier used to team up and fight on the same side!!

[TheRageOfGaia]

Hopefully they learn from the Wolverine movie, and make the Magneto movie... you know... not suck. I hope they use some of the material from the recent Magneto mini, where they show how he survived Auschwitz. I liked that arc a lot.

Also, DragonDM, Wanda is kind of like Psylocke, she's never actually dead. But at least with Wanda and her power, it sort of has some kind of plausibility, especially after the whole House of M thing. Which if you didn't read that, you should, it was pretty cool, I thought, and one of the last good X-Men stories that's come out lately.

I am one of the few people I know who can play Chaotic Neutral the way it was intended. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, cause, I'm definitely not God's gift to role-playing or anything, but I have an easy time getting into character with a CN alignment. And when I have players who have trouble with it, I point them at Han Solo from A New Hope (he becomes more CG/NG after that), Jayne Cobb, from Firefly, or, to some degree, Rorshach from Watchmen. I think Rorshach is CN, but believes that he is LG. So there is some conflict there between him fitting squarely into any alignment.

CN and CE are the two alignments that always scare me when a player chooses them, especially a new player, cause about 60% of the time it means "I have no respect for you, or the effort you're making, so now I'm going to do my best to ruin it with random acts of idiocy."

[Panthro82]

ahhhh Rorshach....I love that character...