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Thread: The proof that 4th ed is made for power gaming?

  1. #1
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    The proof that 4th ed is made for power gaming?

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    I was reading Knights of the dinner table and came across this.

    "The simplest way to summarize the newest D&D is to compare how amny goblins you could resonable kill before dying yourself

    Mike Hensley of WWW.hackslash.net ran a simulation of this in all the diffrent editiions - 1000 first level fighters in each edition
    The ground rules followed for this comparison were: Human fighter with the stats that would be expected from using the standard stat generation method for a given edition. Equipment would be long sword, shield, and the best armor that average starting money would allow. After generating the fighters for each edition, they would then bepaired up aginst an unending stream of goblins (also from THAT edition) one at a time to see how effective they were. These combats were run atlest 1000 times each by a javascript simulator program."

    The results

    OD&D http://www.hackslash.net/?p=212

    BD&D http://www.hackslash.net/?p=213

    AD&D1 http://www.hackslash.net/?p=214

    AD&D2 http://www.hackslash.net/?p=215

    D&D 3e http://www.hackslash.net/?p=216

    D&D 4e http://www.hackslash.net/?p=218

    Final results http://www.hackslash.net/?p=220

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    Wow. That study could imply that goblins are getting weaker, or near extinction, or hardcore oppressed. Or fighters are getting more and more psychotic?

    Or that 4E is roll playing with training wheels.
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    Arch Lich Thoth-Amon is offline Cursed by the Gods
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMMike View Post
    Wow. That study could imply that goblins are getting weaker, or near extinction, or hardcore oppressed. Or fighters are getting more and more psychotic?

    Or that 4E is roll playing with training wheels.
    Goblins are the rabbits of the green races, always reproducing/replacing/increasing their numbers. So no worries for extinction. They are an infestation.

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    Minions aren't an appropriate comparison on their own. It is unlikely that an encounter would be built with just goblin minions. The base goblin as actually a lot more impressive. Goblins in fact overall got a lot of cooler stuff (like Goblin Tactics) in 4e.
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    As someone who enjoys numbers and seeing how they crunch, this is a really cool series of tests. Thanks for sharing it!

    It proves nothing though. It's faulty logic to abstract one minor part of the game system across editions and then apply any deductions drawn from the abstraction globally as example of how those systems work. How to other classes fare? Should we look at cleric's and their potential healing powers? Should we look at saving throws and see if they have grown easier too? What about any number of comparisons that would be fun and easy to make?

    The comparison, though interesting, is a false analogy that does not stack up as a measure for each full edition. It's just an isolated comparison and as suggested in the comments on the summary graph, it's not necessarily a fair comparison either, as the minions which were used for 4.0 have no relative counterpart in the prior editions.

    I can make other logical abstractions from the chart, which are equally invalid on the larger scale but fun to play with in terms of numbers and manipulation. Look at the graph and note the curve. If you take the rate of growth and crunch it down to an average, each new edition causes inflation in terms of the numbers of goblins a fighter can handle by almost 160% (check my math, I'm sleepy).

    Which means Fifth Edition Dungeons & Dragons will allow fighters to kill over 30 goblins at first level and not even care!

    That statement is valid based on the data we have to interpret here, but absolute crap in terms f true value.
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    Arch Lich Thoth-Amon is offline Cursed by the Gods
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    I would agree with grimwell. It is a great article, if not a bit misleading.

    Thoth-Amon

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    I think the analysis, though flawed, makes an interesting statement about 4E. The system gives characters more hit points, more healing, and more ways to slaughter (minions).

    Which should be much more appealing to the type of player who loves destroying hordes of goblins.
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    He should have used a base Goblin, NOT the minion, it destroys the test as a valid comparison. BTW: I still think Forry sucks.

    I wouldn't mine seeing the test rerun with a base goblin. I predict that it would follow the curve seen in the previous editions. A slow inflation.

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    The healing surges are my biggest complaint about FO'E.
    It's as if there are people who play RPGs that don't have computers or something. Seriously, people need to upgrade to 1994 already. - - -TheRedRobedWizard

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    Arch Lich Thoth-Amon is offline Cursed by the Gods
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    To the clever, all editions are made for powergaming... it could be argued.

    Thoth-Amon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Engar View Post
    Even better, 4th Ed does the powergaming for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tesral View Post
    He should have used a base Goblin, NOT the minion, it destroys the test as a valid comparison.
    i respectfully disagree. the comparison is on how many bodies hit the floor (cue music), nothing else. 4e is designed to have a lot of bodies hit the floor, which makes the players feel more "uber". whether they're "minions" or "regulars" is irrelevant, imo.

    yes, the power curve flattens out when you use regular, non-minion, goblins, but if you did THAT test, you'd be ignoring a big part of 4e combats...
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    Here is the problem:

    D&D 4e Goblin Minion
    AC- 16
    HP- 1
    Damage- 4

    The minute he decided to use this instead of a standard goblin the test should have been tossed in the trash. A wizard could wade through endless mobs of minions, much less the fighter. The minion, regardless of level, is going to have 1 hp and is there to be more of a distraction than a threat. That test is garbage and says nothing about 4E and how the game is designed.

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    Well, if nothing else, at least in 4e you no longer have to worry about 1st level TPKs from 4 goblins with extremely lucky dice...
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    Well, actually, a minion counts as 1/4 of an actual monster, so the party would be more like 16 goblin minions to be equivalent. Even though they have 1 hit point, they still have the same armor class bab and damage as a regular goblin.


    You're not going to have a one on one fight, you're going to have your fighter flanked three ways to sunday and giving up combat advantage to the goblins.
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