Pathfinder Beta

[MortonStromgal]

I have to say I like the way this is headed. More hit points at 1st level (I think double the hit die is the option I would go with, as it would cut down on the multi-class rogue/fighter always taking rogue at 1st level), 0 level spells have no limit per day (minor healing removed), and something new at every level are all good things in my humble opinion. The other changes I'm indifferent or undecided on. What are y'alls opinions on it?

[Jcosby]

Well, I'm currently running the Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path by Paizo and we are using the Pathfinder Beta (3.75) rules and we are enjoying it.

By reading a lot of posts on the 3.5 Vs. 4.0 debates I think that most people that like 3.5 will like 3.75 and for the same reasons most people that prefer 4.0 will not like 3.75. But, with that said there are many things that mirror some of the changes in 4.0 in the Pathfinder beta.

For one the first level hp options are very similar to 4.0 but you can choose to stick with standard 3.5 rules as well. We as a group voted and opted for the racial option. Max Hps + Preferred Class + Con + Racial Bonus. Frailer races (Gnomes, Halflings, Elves get +4 hps, Standard Races like Human, Half-Elf receive +6 hps and more hardy races get +8 hps at first level.) We find this to be a good mix and adds more options to character creation.

Another thing that mirrors the "spirit" of 4th edition is the Rage and Ki pools among other changes to character classes. Rage and Ki are now awarded as points to be spent on abilities as apposed to just abilities you can use x times per day. This also gives players more options and more things to do per day.

0 Level spells being cast at will and the first level of domain spells being cast at will also give casters something to do all of the time without over balancing them.

There are many subtle changes in the rules that make the game more streamlined and at the same time adding more options for the player from character creation to game play through out all 20 levels.

The changes to combat maneuvers are done well and make doing things like Bull Rush, Grapple, Trip, Disarm, Sundering quicker and more "game friendly" although I think they favor the "STR" character a bit to much when in some situations a character with a high "Dex" could be just as successful. (Ask a Judo expert if he needs to be super strong to trip someone...) But in the end I think the changes were done to speed up the game and remove something almost everyone disliked in the 3.5 rules and that's the "Grappling" rules.

Over all I think Paizo hit a home run with the Beta Rules. They still have a year to iron out any of the small wrinkles with their rules and add on to what is already a super product.

Here's to hoping that Paizo can keep 3.x alive for a long time.
Jeff

[amardolem]

I am also in a beta game of RotRL. We have used the CMB/ new grapple rules with great success (and speed), also having school powers for wizards and unlimited cantrips allows your character to remain useful after you blow off your big stuff at low levels.....I actually (as a joke) went on on a detect magic spree-----> "I'm casting Detect Magic" rnd 2 "I'm casting Detect Magic" rnd 3 "I'm casting Detect Magic" rnd 4 "I'm casting Detect Magic" ....but more to the point one of their goals was to end the 15 minute adventuring day at low levels, and anyone that has played a Wizard at those levels can attest to how the game becomes if the party decides to forge on, and you have nothing left.

[Skunkape]

One of the three GMs in our group is really into Pathfinder and is going to introduce it in parts for his current campaign and when we start his new one, sometime after the first of the year, we'll be playing the entire rule set. So far, I like what I see, but I haven't read through the whole set of rules yet.

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

I like what ive read so far and fully intend to purchase the 500+ page Alpha rules when released.

Thoth-Amon

[amardolem]

The pdf is free for the Beta.....if you read some I'm assuming you know that, if not... it's here: http://paizo.com/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG

I hate reading pdf's so I ordered the print version as well, and while it is abit below Paizo's normal glossy fit and finish, it's still color and a decent value (course I'm sure it'll be up to standards when the hardcover comes out)

I can add that it doesn't change the feel of the game your used to at all, it's seems well within the compatablity with 3.5 goal they have set for it

[gdmcbride]

I picked up the Pathfinder beta print edition at Gencon and I have to agree its a home run. If you love 3.x of D&D and merely wanted D&D 4th edition to be a refinement/clean up of the system, this is exactly what you asked for.

It simply drips good ideas. A few stand outs:

a) all the classes have good reason to go all the way to 20th level.
b) save or die spells have all been revamped so the do damage instead of just killing you.
c) CMB (combat maneuver bonus) both encouraged fun chandelier swinging, tripping, disarming sort of actions but all the while making it much faster to 'do the math'.
d) stat increasing items only go in two slots opening up PCs to more versatile and thus more interesting magic items.

And thanks to a year long open playtest this system is going to get the hell beaten out of it by thousands of rabid fans. Pathfinder 1.0 is a direct outgrowth of D&D 3.0 (which had an incredibly extensive playtest and then years of actual play) which lead to D&D 3.5 (again extensive playtesting and years of use) and now Paizo's own efforts are only adding to this.

You still may not like the system (it is good ol' fashioned crunchy D&D 3.x at its core after all) but you can't say they didn't test it. This could be the most playtested system of all time.

Gary

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

The pdf is free for the Beta.....if you read some I'm assuming you know that, if not... it's here: http://paizo.com/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG

I hate reading pdf's so I ordered the print version as well, and while it is abit below Paizo's normal glossy fit and finish, it's still color and a decent value (course I'm sure it'll be up to standards when the hardcover comes out)

I can add that it doesn't change the feel of the game your used to at all, it's seems well within the compatablity with 3.5 goal they have set for it

Already downloaded it, amardolem. Thanks for link for i am sure many will be using it. I wont buy the beta release but the alpha is surely on my list. I can read pdf's but am an old-schooler and prefer books(easier to greedily possess like a magician and his long lost tome) over computer books, as i am sure many of us here are. A special thanks goes to Paizo.com, for 3.75.

Thoth-Amon

[MortonStromgal]

I'm confused is Paizo not using the term beta testing correctly? In software and alpha test is usually an internal test before getting outside testers, once that passes then you move into the beta test stages and let people outside the developers test it. Finally after the beta test you have release.

I agree with all of you print is better overall. I've been printing sections that I really want to go over.

[gdmcbride]

They are using it correctly. They did the alpha on their web site early this year. That lead to the beta which is out now both digitally and in print. Next year is Pathfinder 1.0.

Gary

[Engar]

I was a little overwhelmed by the racial powers. I may have misunderstood them. I want to take another look. 4e is not my cup of tea.

[DMMike]

I looked over the alpha (the first playtest, right?). I'm not happy with it. I was hoping for a few changes here or there to streamline things, like some skill updating (which they did), and ease-of-play improvements (which they did with combat). Throw in some new flavor and possibly brand-new classes (like the excellent Dragon book from a while back), and you have a reason to continue 3E.

Instead, it looks like they tried to rework everything. If it ain't broken, sabotage it! (Do the goblins have that saying wrong?) The beefier hit points are very much a "hold my hand while I gain experience" thing, and the core classes didn't need any changing at all. (Maybe the cleric was a tad over powered). But pumping everyone up doesn't raise the bar, it just raises the average. I'll stick to the 3.5 books and use Pathfinder for a house rule here or there.

[MortonStromgal]

I really like the beta version of the skills, they lowered the number (not as few as 4e) and consolidated. Like open locks is now a part of what you can do with disable device. I didn't read the alpha so I have no idea on that. The beta game seams very much an improvement on 3.5 to me however it still retains many of the annoyances D&D has always had. Personally I think the extra hit points at first level makes more sense. I never liked the 5th level character is 5x or more better than the 1st level. I really enjoyed AD&D 2nd where the hit dice were dropped after 9th level though, I just wish they gave you more at the start.

Most Improved
Race: Half-Elf
Class: Fighter or Sorcerer

[gdmcbride]

Right now, double hit points is an optional rule. The standard method remains max hit points + con bonus at 1st, dice + con bonus every level thereafter.

They have a sidebar on page 14 suggesting alternative methods for playtesting.

I would disagree with the sentiment that they are merely changing things for the sake of change. What they have done is change all of the core classes so that you get something useful in nearly every level for every one of the core classes. And all of the core classes get a big bennie for making it to 20th level.

In this way, they are taking one of the good ideas from 4th edition and applying to 3.x while still leaving 3.x recognizable as the old game.

These are welcome changes for me. A single classed character is almost always simpler and easier to play. Now you can have that simplicity without sacrificing mechanical advantage. I like that.

Are there things I don't like? Sure.

Class skills still irk me. Why can't my fighter be stealthy or a diplomat? What if my fighter's concept is that he was raised the son of ambassador who travelled the world and taught him to raise the sword only as a last resort? "But when you do draw at last that sword, son, you win!" But they are even easier in Pathfinder to house rule away.

Huge piles of stepped attack bonus attacks remain in the game thus ensuring that high level play is PAINFULLY slow as fighters, rangers, paladins and barbarians wind their way through attack after attack that after the first couple are almost certainly going to miss.

The acrobatic feat gives you a +2 bonus to your acrobatic skill (no problem there) and your ... FLY skill? That's bizarre.

But these are minor complaints. Overall, there is much here to like.

Gary

[DMMike]

...like the artwork.

(A fighter can't get as many Move Silently ranks as a Rogue because it's not a fundamental part of his training. Think of it like a lawyer who's excellent at identifying igneous rock formations unique to Micronesia. It's possible, but not part of the training.)