I just joined the forums since I'm looking for active d+d communities to chat to and learn from. I'm seeing a lot of the negative posts and bashing on 4th and just wanted to post my two cents.
I'm a 30 year old gamer who has been rp'ing since I was 14, yes we did d+d but strayed from it since we found it lacking in overall cohesiveness. Yes there was great depth and wonderful campaigns to build around but it was always a bit mickey mouse to us.
I know many will laugh at that but in the end we, like many others, developed an entire and original gaming environment and system MysTech :: Index called mystech. No I do not provide you with a link with any other intention past providing credentials.
We also play magic:the gathering but have not bought new cards since they changed the card type. Infact you would not even recognize the game we play if you were a magic player there are so many house rules etc.
To quote a magic gamer we had by casually last week: "wow I had no idea you could make magic this deep and complex, you made a whole new game."
I preface all of this because we have now ventured into 4th edition whole heartedly and with a large investment. It will not be our primary rp but will take up about 40% of our campaigning time now. The 4th edition is tight, well thought out and extremely user friendly and adaptable.
As one gamer to another I would say that I understand the hardcore, I understand you dont like ALOT within 4th edition, but adapt guys! Make it what you want, isn't that what rp is????!!
I know it's a lot of work, especially in d+d since it has repercussions everywhere throughout the game.
This honestly is a great game though now, I think 4th has brought new life into this game and will be a huge success. Instead of putting it down, create constructive criticism and send it to WotC. In our group alone you are looking at 8-10 new d+d players spending at least 100 dollars each on material. This means more resources put towards making all of our gaming experience better Yes the fatcat's get more too, but sometimes finding the right ones is what matters and I hope that WotC are the right ones for D+D, seems like they are so far.
In the end you can make it what you want, thats the point of rp. I also do not want to come off as a wizard of the coast fanboi. They need criticism and feedback, just not stuff they will shrug off as fanatic overreaction. I do think that they hit a homerun with 4th edition however and think that the option to make it more like a boardgame or to make it a classic rp adventure is wonderful.
So from one new player to all you veteran's I wish you luck in life and adventure and hope my two cents shed some light on a new player perspective
Oooh! I know!
Because I have a busy life and don't have the time to build me a new RPG from the ground up just to suit my tastes! Because most people get glazed eyes when you mention your own personal RPG system -- they just want to play something they know and get on with the fun. Because 4E isn't all that bad of a system.
There are many answers. They don't apply for everyone though.
Because you already "Fixed" your system of choice and you don't want to spend the years of time to "fix" another one.
Running: infrequent VtM game
"I'm beautifully hideous!" - Sven the Nosferatu
At the end of the day, our hobby is about having fun. If your group finds 4e fun and worth your time, effort and money, then do yourself a favor by buying it and playing it. If your group doesn't find it fun or doesn't feel it is worth the investment, then take comfort in your right not to.
That's the extent of my truly meaningful advice on the subject. Everything else is just degrees of bias.
HARRY DRESDEN — WIZARD
Lost items found. Paranormal Investigations.
Consulting. Advice. Reasonable Rates.
No Love Potions, Endless Purses, or Other Entertainment.
Personally, I play 4e and I just don't participate in the bashing discussions anymore. There was never much substance to them, and most of the claims are completely subjective and thus uninteresting (things like "it doesn't 'feel' like D&D, or "I don't like it, that's my opinion, what, I don't get to have an opinion?"). I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they're still going on- but thankfully we have an anti-trolling policy here for the threads discussing 4e-specific topics, so there is productive discussion going on here still.
I do wonder about the new members here that do nothing but bash 4e- are they so upset by the new system that they have to find strangers to whine to about it?
Anyway, check out this wikipedia article for my take on the ongoing bashing.
Last edited by Valdar; 08-26-2008 at 03:34 PM.
The reason I won't buy a 4E book is the same reason I won't buy most 3E books: I have everything I need to roleplay. Two of my core books didn't even make it to 3.5. With the Rules Compendium, all you'd need is a set of dice and imagination (and good class-balancing skills). So I really don't see the need to buy into a whole new product line.
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The previous editions are not going to magically vanish unless an asteroid hits earth or something equally unappealing. The community is here to support old games, too. Some of the naysayers don't seem to get that, yet. (I'm afraid it will happen again when D&D 5.0 comes out.) The alpha dog got old, and now a new one has taken its place. The old dogs are not dead but are wise and have years of experience to pull from, and may even have a few tricks we haven't seen yet.
Please pass the Koolaid!
Last edited by ronpyatt; 08-27-2008 at 09:34 AM.
I too have made the same observations as Valdar in that the old school gamers are upset that the game has changed again for the third time in 10 years. The other observation I have noticed is that some of those gamers can't accept the idea that one of their own would be willing to move forward into the new edition. I was reluctant to move on to 3E when it came out, complaining that it was to much like a video game, that feats would ruin the game, and that the new edition does not feel like D&D. I look back now and find it ironic that my complaints sounded so similiar to many of the modern day complaints of 4E (Too much like an MMO (Video Game), and it doesn't feel like D&D).
I eventually grew to love 3E D&D and embraced 3.5 when that came out. Thankfully having had sold off all the 3E a short time before the release because of a miscommunication between me and my (at the time) new wife I was more readily able to purchase 3.5 books. Now, with 4E I have learned my past mistakes (buying to many suppliments) and have fallen in love with the ease and speed of the new edition. I spend almost no time at all plotting out battles and thinking up grand adventures with the new system. I adore the idea that simple math has crept its way into D&D (i.e 500xp / 5 party members = lvl 1 encounter). As I read the PHB and DMG I constantly was beeming with excitement over this rule and that, how things changed and I was loving it and felt the simplicity would eliminate rule arguments and how it would allow the players to stop thinking about the numbers their characters were made up of an get back to thinking about the story of the character itself.
And so far I have not been dissapointed. I have had one rule argument with a person about the type of action Intimidating an enemy into surrendering was, but other than that each session has been smooth as silk. For me, the more surprising is that I actuall read the books. No edition previous have I ever read the entire PHB and DMG, and learned from watching others. With this one, I read it all because I was gripped by the books and wanted to know more. I don't plan on buying many of the 4E books this go around, which was my mistake with 3.5 and I think it was another thing that WoTC did to screw the pooch on that edition (burn out the idea team by doing to much to fast). But I also feel that my options are nearly endless with just the three books that I have now and expect years of fun. I can only hope that the hatred for 4E quiets down as it did with every edition before this one.
I have to agre with you the speed at which encounters can be developed is a little frightening compared to the other editions. there were times an encounter might take two hours just to make sure I didn't get to difficult, now with the xp budget it is much easier and faster.I spend almost no time at all plotting out battles and thinking up grand adventures with the new system. I adore the idea that simple math has crept its way into D&D (i.e 500xp / 5 party members = lvl 1 encounter).
Figuring out how to present a challenging encounter was always the part I hated most about DMing 3.5. A very close second was the constant rules arguements when you tried to present something intersting and different. Now, while I can still do something interesting and different, the rules are more definet and clear on if that idea is even possible within the context of the rules.
Personally I'm an old school D&D hater. I became dissatisfied with many aspects of D&D with the 1E and switched to playing other game systems in 1989. I played 2E D&D once, and found out that I still hated it. I never even bothered to look at the 3E and only recently tried to read 3.5, and it gave me a headache. So I've been watching the for and against 4E debate as someone who has no interest in either. It's kind of like watching a long hated enemy clan tear itself apart due to civil war, quite enjoyable actually .
With that said, I wanted to see how bad 4E (or FO'E, as I've decided to call it) was for myself so I downloaded a perfectly legal copy from one of my millions of totally anonymous online friends.
So after a couple of days of reading I have concluded.....
It's a perfectly good game. It still has some of the aspects that I didn't like about 1E (as does 2E, 3E 3.5E for that matter) but I think that's a matter of personal taste and that doesn't make the game unplayable. Is it a perfect game? no. Is it better than the last edition? I have no idea, never played the last edition or even finished reading the rules. I think FO'E will do just fine....in fact I went down to the local game store yesterday and paid an outrageous $37.50 for the Players Handbook and deleted my perfectly legal online copy. I am also currently looking for a group to play with.
It's as if there are people who play RPGs that don't have computers or something. Seriously, people need to upgrade to 1994 already. - - -TheRedRobedWizard