Shadowrun 4e vs. 1e-3e

[MortonStromgal]

Well thats a problem as a Datasearch is basicly using a browser, now one could argue that any comlink should include a browse program of 1, however this is not stated. Nor is a clear default for people who lack a program and the skill but if you think of the program as replacing the attribute one could say that a logic -1 roll would be acceptable for those who do not have a program or the skill. This however creates a new problem of hackers with no programs because you get a very high logic score and you wouldn't need them. Which is why I would suggest raising the threshold rather than a -1 give them a threshold of 2 or more and programs become appealing again.

So basicly the rules are unclear at best. Which is one problem with parts of 4e. Rigging is another one with two seporate combat systems which are incompatible with each other, one tactical and one chase.

[praksis]

I don't think it's that big of a problem, but then my perspective on what requires a roll is a little different. Hop online to use the net for normal browsing of info...no roll required. No skill doesn't mean you can't, just you aren't good at the difficult portions. Looking for an article about ancient rpgs, no problem, looking for one by a specific author who's somewhat obscure (I mean who cares about that ancient crap anyway ) you should have at least a little experience (skill of 1) to give it a try.

Likewise with the programs, I see browse 1 as a significantly more advanced program than just a simple search engine. It's going out to a dataset you identify and searching for specific information as directed. Might not be great at it, but what you're asking of it is significantly more challenging than what you'd get from google, afterall how many databases let google ping them?

Or the summarized version: legal usage of the net requires no roll, just time based on your skill (or lack of). Anything fancy or illegal definitely requires skill & specific programs to back it up.


Rigging I'll have to get back to you on. Haven't reread that part yet, but will be soon as the character I'm thinking of is one (technomancer rigger...powerful, not so much, but much more interesting than just a rigger)

[MortonStromgal]

I don't think it's that big of a problem,

I'm not saying its a big problem, I'm saying its odd. With SR4 I'm reading along and along thinking ok good stuff, equal or better than the last edition then I hit a and I wonder why did they do something so odd, I try to come up with some reason the developers would have to do that and in some cases I can come to a conclusion and in others cases I really don't have any clue why (BP cost of attribute & group skills vs karma cost of attribute & group skills, I'm looking at you most of all) Part of these oddities are translation issues others are new system issues (really its a new system), hopefully those two will get hammered out in 5e.

The design goal of 4e is very different from 2e & 3e, in some cases we know what those design goals were (streamline the system to a unified mechanic using concepts found in nWOD) in others no developer has said what the goal was.

[MortonStromgal]

So after a lot of reading and thinking here is a list of things I think are better/more fun in older editions and a list of things that are better/ more fun in the newer edition

Older Edition Better
1. Dice Pools (major)
2. Karma Pool (major)
3. Initiative (minor)
4. Skill Caps (minor)
5. Damage Track (minor)

4e Better
1. Magic (major)
2. TN resolution (major)
3. Matrix (major)
4. Rigging (major)

So with the exception of TN the old seams better at the core but 4e wins on the subsystems. With a return to dice pools and making edge work like karma pool, I think I could really enjoy 4e. There are still problems with Magic, Matrix, and Rigging but the older editions had problems to and its not anything you could not house rule just like previous editions.

4e without house rules gets a 6/10 because the things I don't like are part of the core system.
With some "fixes" (Edge/Dice Pools) I think it will be a 10/10 as the best SR yet. (I'm bias though as I love SR)

[Lucifer_Draconus]

I have yet to read the 4ed. rules but own both 2nd & 3rd ed. I'm not big on SR rules in general especially dice pools. What I've read of 4th ed. , I think I'll prefer the rules over previous editions. My only problem would be technomancers..just don't fly with me. I'm planning on converting SR to my fav. cyberpunk system, cyberspace (ICE) if I ever run it.

[Dytrrnikl]

I have the 4E books and am quite intrigues by the 400BP character creation process. My only experience comes from 3E and the only gripe I had with that system was rolling a d6 for TNs. It made things like trying to get 8 or better pretty damned near impossible...and unless the GM was doing something wrong, TNs above 7 came up quite a bit. Our fix was to change the die rolled to d10s and tweaked the TNs appropropriately 6s to 10s, 5s to 8s, 4s to 6s and so forth. Made for a smoother flow. However, I digress so, back on topic.

From what I've seen, they've done a lot to streamline the clunkiness from 3E, at least from what I can tell by reading teh rules.

[MortonStromgal]

It made things like trying to get 8 or better pretty damned near impossible...and unless the GM was doing something wrong, TNs above 7 came up quite a bit.

I'm wondering what you were trying to do that 7s came up so much (Most TNs are 4) and a 7 is no harder than a 6 on a d6 unless your GM had some house rule. There is a lot to know about building your character in any edition of Shadowrun as the gear tends to lower your target numbers and raise that of your opponents. Having the right gear can make all the difference. My group is currently using 3e with a few houserules (like specializations work like 4e) and I would say for the majority of us its a great fit.

[Bearfoot_Adam]

In the last SR 3 game I was in our characters never had a problem hitting those big numbers in the things our characters were supposed to do. We often hit 8's 10's and even 12's. I think the important thing to remember in SR you are playing specialists so having big dice pools in select fields is par for the course.

[Lexicon]

I don't like what 4e did with the Magic system. I enjoyed both the schools of magic bumping heads with each other back in the day.

[Goreaddict]

I've only ever played 4e. So I have no insight on how it stacks up, but what I will say is if I don't limit the other players to a 300 bp for creation I end up having a group of runners that can easily over come every situation, OR a certain individual in my group makes something ridiculous like a pixie, naga, spirit, or 6 armed thing.