Shadowrun 4e vs. 1e-3e

[MortonStromgal]

Who has opinions, I of course am full of them

I started late 1e and really cut my teeth on 2e, I ran 3e for 2 years and did not like 4e when it came out but now I may have started changing that opinion.

The more I play with the 4e character creation the less it annoys me, though it still feels like GURPS to me. Things I have noticed on 400BP builds is I always take max cash and I always run out (I have not created any magical types yet). The availability seams pretty good for giving you decent but not awesome gear. The Edges and Flaws (or whatever they are call) bug me. I really don't like flaws giving you points at creation I really prefure them giving you XP if it causes problems in a session ala nWOD (and Nobils I hear but I have never read it). I have a hard time remembering that I don't need skills at 6 anymore to be effective if I have a decent attribute score. It really seams like high attributes are the way to go with 1 to 3 pts in a skill at most to start. Edge is really important in the game, perhaps too important making me want at leased and Edge of 3 but 6 is ideal.

[praksis]

Haven't played 4th yet, and didn't get to really dive into 2nd & 3rd too much (only a couple campains for each) but from going through the exercise of creating a character I do like it quite a bit. Took awhile to get used to the point buy, but like that as well now.

I've only made 2 thus far though along similar concepts...regular ex-corp rigger & technomancer rigger. My first impression of the regular rigger was it seemed too easy to have some really nasty abilities right off the bat. Could be my smaller amount of experience with SR, but they just seemed too good (most programs near max, very good drones, etc). The technomancer definitely has a lot more room to grow (with the added bonus that the concept seems far more fun)

Most likely still won't be able to play at all till October, but for now I give it a thumbs up and to me is seems each edition of SR so far has been an improvement over the last.

[darelf]

I haven't been particularly impressed with the rules, but I find it much better than previous versions.

It is certainly playable. And I feel it is more playable, and more amenable to my sort of seat-of-the-pants style of GMing than the previous versions were.

My players enjoyed the short campaign we played with 4th. So that's something, I suppose.

I think if you enjoyed ShadowRun at all, 4th edition is just a better version of that, and is well worth the update....

[MortonStromgal]

I figured out something that really bugs me in 4e, only 1 social attribute. It went from being 6:1 to 8:1. I feel this is a step in the wrong direction. 8:2 would have been better they could have left reaction derived and added another social attribute.

[trechriron]

I like the improvements but frankly, overall, I haven't like any of the systems in any addition. Just not my style. I, however own a pile of SR books because I LOVE the setting idea. Most of the books are style and fluff so porting over my current RPG fav is generally a breeze.

[Freejack]

I figured out something that really bugs me in 4e, only 1 social attribute. It went from being 6:1 to 8:1. I feel this is a step in the wrong direction. 8:2 would have been better they could have left reaction derived and added another social attribute.

What sort of additional social attribute? I think the skills have quite a few social types and they're just added to Charisma to give you the ability to tweak it a little better.

I ran 1st and 2nd for short periods but really liked the setting. I played in 3rd for 6 months or so and started getting into it before I had to leave (smoking GM and I couldn't take it any more). I've been running 4th for just about a year now and it seems to be just right for my style of GMing.

Easier to hand-wave stuff and have it still work great until I the hang of all the dice pools. I'm just now getting full control of hacking so I think I'm pretty much up to speed on the general part of the game. The con on Friday will be throwing me into the deep end though

Carl

[MortonStromgal]

I like the improvements but frankly, overall, I haven't like any of the systems in any addition.

They have all had there... shall we say colorful flaws but I think they work starting at 2e on pretty well if you house rule by simplification.

What sort of additional social attribute?

I would have liked to see Manipulation (or something similar). When I think of Charisma I think of first impression/ general attitude, I don't think Machiavellian politics.

THIS IS NOT DONE TILL THIS LINE IS GONE

Mechanical Improvements with 4e
Sorcery - While the lack of needing to buy your spells at a force is not anything like previous editions and it may break the mold, it is far more playable and I say 3e players should do the same. My simple system is divide your starting spell points by 5 and that is the number of spells you get. Set the cost for a new spell at 10,000 nuyen.
Spirits - While still tough a mundane character can actually hurt it. 3e players should treat combat as a standard combat test rather than a willpower test.
Matrix - Hurray for a single node! I've been doing this since 2e but they finally followed suit. 3e players should just design one node to go against.

Mechanical Oddities with 4e (I call them oddities because perhaps the designers wanted it that way, I just don't understand why)
Character Creation vs Advancement Attributes and Group Skills both cost 10 BP at character creation but when advancing attributes are x3 and group skills are x5
Skill Cap The older game was very skill focused, 4e makes your gear and attributes count for more by capping skills at 6.
Super Stat Edge Based on the standard 4 hour Mission games characters with a low edge are way underpowered compared with characters with high edge, yet it costs the same as every other attribute.
Initiative Passes Now someone without magic or cyberware no one can get multiple passes, it was super rare in 2e & 3e (a little more common in 1e) but you did have a shot if your reaction was high enough
[Edit] Defaulting in the Matrix is not clearly stated if you don't have the skill or the program.
Two sets of Rigging combat rules one for chases and one for tactical but they are incompatible, what if I want a tactical chase?

[darelf]

Are you done yet? It's been almost a day, and most people... well... I mean...

nevermind

[MortonStromgal]

I'm slow and I have to make sure I don't miss anything.

[darelf]

I'm slow and I have to make sure I don't miss anything.

I'm just giving you a hard time....

[catateface]

I loved 2 and 3- both the settings and the rules (uber-flexible pointbuy character creation = best feature). 4th was... much less fun. When my group first got it we all agreed- it was better in every way and we loved it. We played the first half of a mission and agreed- awesome in every way. But by the end of that first mission we realized that there was way too little variability. Consistently got the same result when taking a shot with a given penalty. No penalty = 6 successes, four die penalty = 4 successes EVERY TIME, etc. Having just die penalties/bonuses and no Target Number modifiers killed it. Anyone else have that experience?

We sold our 4e books, went back to 3e (which admittedly needs a few house rules, but I've never found a system that didn't) and have loved every minute.

[darelf]

We sold our 4e books, went back to 3e (which admittedly needs a few house rules, but I've never found a system that didn't) and have loved every minute.

We loved the system of 4e so much we replaced it with Unisystem.....

[praksis]

Been re-reading some of the rules, and not sure about that defaulting in the matrix. Seems computer + logic is only for getting a particular device to work in the physical world. Anything using a program seems like it would default to just computer if you didn't have the program.

The fix number of successes I'm not sure on. Could definitely be an issue, but with only 33% of success on each die it seems like thre should be enough variability in particular roles to still leave an element of chance. Moving target numbers was always the thing that allowed really broken characters previously so like the fixed idea, will have to see how it plays out when our GM can finally run the game.

[MortonStromgal]

Been re-reading some of the rules, and not sure about that defaulting in the matrix. Seems computer + logic is only for getting a particular device to work in the physical world. Anything using a program seems like it would default to just computer if you didn't have the program.

What if you don't have computer?

[praksis]

By the way I read the rules, I think you're screwed for doing any hacking at that point.

I don't think that would stop anyone from still accessing things. Standard menu's to go to corp approved sites & data...they would just be the type that occasionally gets confused by search engines