Warning: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in ..../includes/class_bbcode.php on line 2968
Green Ronin not signing the GSL
Recent Chat Activity (Main Lobby)
Join Chat

Loading Chat Log...

Prefer not to see ads? Become a Community Supporter.
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 19

Thread: Green Ronin not signing the GSL

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Beaverton
    Age
    47
    Posts
    446
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Green Ronin not signing the GSL

    Prefer not to see ads?
    Become a Community Supporter.
    Green Ronin has officially announced they will not be signing the GSL and supporting fourth edition in only a very limited way. You can read the full press release on the front page of their web site. Instead they will be focusing on their own systems (Mutants and Masterminds, True 20, Freeport and the upcoming non-d20 Song of Ice and Fire RPG).

    This is another interesting development in what is proving to be an interesting time for RPGs. But what does it all mean?

    I think it is yet another blow to the GSL. Chris Pramas and Nicole Lindroos are far from being outsiders of the industry. GR has produced over 100 d20/OGL gaming products over their company's history. Their absence means there will be far fewer GSL products on shelves in years to come.

    But is that a good thing or a bad thing?

    Hmmm....

    Gary

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Arlington
    Age
    35
    Posts
    92
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    From the way the GSL read I would say it's exactly what WotC had in mind.

    Is a good or bad thing?

    Personally I was always wary of 3rd party material, I had a hard enough time convincing my DM to let me use stuff other than core, and I don't blame him because it got kinda silly with all the extra books. Furthermore it rarely seemed to fit well with 1st party, it was similar but difference discouraged me.

    But if WotC is the only one producing anything they won't have to worry near so much about producing quality material, no competetion = no inovation.

    Time will tell.
    Normal people worry me.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Collierville
    Posts
    125
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Kenzer&Co has also said that they aren't signing the GSL. In fact a few days ago they released an updated version of The Kingdoms of Kalamar for 4E(PDF only for right now).
    http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info...roducts_id=625

    As long as you don't use any of WOTC's IP then anyone can publish a "4E Compatible" supplement without the GSL.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Easton
    Posts
    87
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thats true but there update is kinda vague on certain point and could be adjusted to almost any fantasy setting. It is sad that Hackmaster 5th edition is goin to be a new sytem but i understand it. Wizards opulled there licence to use 2nd edition and so they will have to move on. I am sure it will be great though as they are not the types to produce a product they dontr beleave in.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Collierville
    Posts
    125
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Just to be clear, Wizards didn't "Pull the license". WOTC and K&Co had an settlement agreement which included the license for a set number of years. K&Co always planned to let it expire. In short K&Co never asked for an extension and WOTC never offered.

    Dave and crew have said all along that is why they started years ago toward distancing themselves from WOTC trademarks and developed Aces&Eights.

    From what they've said HM5 will incorporate some stuff from A&8's. From what little I've heard from the people involved it's gonna be kewl...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Richardson
    Age
    53
    Posts
    1,297
    Blog Entries
    33
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Greylond View Post
    As long as you don't use any of WOTC's IP then anyone can publish a "4E Compatible" supplement without the GSL.
    Hmmm ... I'm not sure about that. I thought you had to sign the GSL to use the SRD, which is essentially a list of all the content you can reference (or quote in short snippets).

    The sample PDF includes a stat block for a variant horse that refers to the Monster Manual (albeit vaguely), and another that defines a new PC race. Both rely implicitly on rules in D&D 4th edition. Kenzer can argue Fair Use, but WotC can still lawyer them out of existence even before the case goes to trial.

    Notice, too, that Kenzer is hedging its bets by making this version available only as a PDF and a POD book. No inventory = nothing to pulp if WotC gets snippy.
    "On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
    - Charles Babbage (1791 - 1871)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Seattle
    Age
    37
    Posts
    27
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Igbutton View Post
    But if WotC is the only one producing anything they won't have to worry near so much about producing quality material, no competetion = no inovation.
    Look to different systems like Pathfinder to provide that competition, I'd say.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Richardson
    Age
    53
    Posts
    1,297
    Blog Entries
    33
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gdmcbride View Post
    Chris Pramas and Nicole Lindroos are far from being outsiders of the industry. GR has produced over 100 d20/OGL gaming products over their company's history. Their absence means there will be far fewer GSL products on shelves in years to come.

    But is that a good thing or a bad thing?
    Depends who you are. D&D's current third-party publishers are splitting into 3.x holdouts (e.g. Paizo), proprietary system vendors (e.g. Green Ronin and Kenzer) and 4e boosters (mainly WotC, but supposedly Necromancer). WotC can only publish so many titles, so that will reduce the amount of 4e material available. Also, while the PDF market might be small potatoes, it's a source for small and cheap house rules; most of these guys might balk at the GSL, if WotC even deigns to let them on board, so players will have even fewer choices for new adventures, feats, races, classes, powers, etc.

    WotC is gambling that they can draw in more players than they alienate and have (nearly) all the pie to themselves. I suspect what will happen, instead, is that the total D&D pie will shrink, and non D&D systems -- old and new -- may get more of the total RPG pie. Not that there's much pie to go around in this business.
    "On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
    - Charles Babbage (1791 - 1871)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Collierville
    Posts
    125
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by fmitchell View Post
    Hmmm ... I'm not sure about that. I thought you had to sign the GSL to use the SRD, which is essentially a list of all the content you can reference (or quote in short snippets).

    The sample PDF includes a stat block for a variant horse that refers to the Monster Manual (albeit vaguely), and another that defines a new PC race. Both rely implicitly on rules in D&D 4th edition. Kenzer can argue Fair Use, but WotC can still lawyer them out of existence even before the case goes to trial.

    Notice, too, that Kenzer is hedging its bets by making this version available only as a PDF and a POD book. No inventory = nothing to pulp if WotC gets snippy.
    David Kenzer's real job is a IP Lawyer for a Major Corporation. He's studied and practiced IP Law for 15+ years. He says that they are ok, I'm willing to trust him since I'm not lawyer and don't know more than he does about it.

    Also, Kalamar came out in 1994 and TSR never objected at the time and that was during their lawsuit happy days...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Richardson
    Age
    53
    Posts
    1,297
    Blog Entries
    33
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Greylond View Post
    David Kenzer's real job is a IP Lawyer for a Major Corporation. He's studied and practiced IP Law for 15+ years. He says that they are ok, I'm willing to trust him since I'm not lawyer and don't know more than he does about it.
    I've no doubt they ran it by lawyers, and the boss being a copyright lawyer is a plus. But it's a fine line they're trying to draw, and one slip could open them up to a lawsuit, even an ill-founded one. A major toy corporation's pet sharks can easily chew through Kenzer's time and money.

    And, as I've noted, Kenzer Co is clearly hedging their bets.
    "On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
    - Charles Babbage (1791 - 1871)

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Collierville
    Posts
    125
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Nah, what Dave said in this thread was;

    we no longer have an agreement with Wizards. Why? Is there some "magic" restriction in IP law that restricts people from making new creative material that doesn't use any TMs, patents or copyrights of another company?

    Oh, perhaps it's the magical FUD rule that you're referring to?

    By-the-by, KoK first appeared in 1994 and we had no formal relationship with TSR.
    copyright infringement is basing your work on someone else's creative expression. Rules are not creative expression. Also, it is not "based" on their rules. It happens to "work with" their rules.

    SHould every programmer that writes a program that works with a computer have to pay the owner of the OS it runs on? I think not. I could be wrong, but fortunately, the US and International copyright laws agree with me.

    A world where one could not reference others' materials in their product would be a dark and sad place.
    We sold Kalamar from 94-2001. A dozen or more products. never once did even litigious TSR send a letter. Let alone WoTC themselves (who, IIRC, got their start by making 3rd party product for Palladium games).


    Also, folks misunderstand this move. This is not a heroic gesture or a jab at WoTC. We're just some guys with some kewl IP sittin around that would be better served making revenue. If anything, having a top-notch campaign setting converted to DD4 can only help Wizards sell more DD4 books.

    If they feel somehow slighted because we didn't follow a license that we've never needed before, well I can't help how they feel. but somehow I doubt they feel slighted. They're pros after all.
    Like I said, WOTC/TSR never objected to Kalamar pre-3.x and Dave has got lots of experience as a Lawyer AND the Presiden/CEO of a Game Company(more than most other Game Company Prez/CEOs out there). I'd tend to think he knows what he's talking about.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Dearborn
    Posts
    7,395
    Blog Entries
    16
    Downloads
    9
    Uploads
    5
    Considering the GSL (Gotta Supply Loot) I can handly blame them. Might as well cut off an arm as sign that thing.

    Garry AKA --Phoenix-- Rising above the Flames.
    My favorite game console is a table and chairs.
    The Olde Phoenix Inn

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Lake Jackson
    Age
    48
    Posts
    650
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by fmitchell View Post
    Hmmm ... I'm not sure about that. I thought you had to sign the GSL to use the SRD, which is essentially a list of all the content you can reference (or quote in short snippets).

    The sample PDF includes a stat block for a variant horse that refers to the Monster Manual (albeit vaguely), and another that defines a new PC race. Both rely implicitly on rules in D&D 4th edition. Kenzer can argue Fair Use, but WotC can still lawyer them out of existence even before the case goes to trial.

    Notice, too, that Kenzer is hedging its bets by making this version available only as a PDF and a POD book. No inventory = nothing to pulp if WotC gets snippy.
    well, you can't copyright rules, for one, so, unless the judge is "in pocket" for WotC, any "rules" based lawsuit should get thrown out as frivolous. what you CAN copyright is format and verbiage, so kenser needs to be aware of that trap...
    "well, g'night! dont let the flesh eating demon bed babies bite!!"
    facebook.com/houstonderek

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Richardson
    Age
    53
    Posts
    1,297
    Blog Entries
    33
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    From browsing around, there are hints that Goodman Games is trying to do an end-run around the GSL as well. For example, their 4e-compatible DCC modules will be available before Oct 1. (On the other hand, they seem to be discontinuing their 3.x DCC line.)

    It's probably legal, but I'm paranoid ... what's sensible sometimes departs from what is legal, which in turn departs from what somebody can find a judge to sign off on.
    "On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
    - Charles Babbage (1791 - 1871)

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Beaverton
    Age
    47
    Posts
    446
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Igbutton View Post
    But if WotC is the only one producing anything they won't have to worry near so much about producing quality material, no competetion = no inovation.

    Time will tell.
    There is definitely going to be competition. Paizo's "Pathfinder", Mongoose's "Conan, Green Ronin's "True20" -- not to mention even if all of those folded -- RPGs are just an entertainment media. RPGs must compete with CRPGS, MMORPGs, Board Games, CCGs, and so forth.

    I do not fear that WotC will have no competition. 'What sort of competition' is really the question.

    Gary

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Ronin (Omni)
    By PnP News Bot in forum Archived Product Reviews
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-02-2007, 12:30 PM
  2. [Green Ronin] Green Ronin Holiday Sale
    By PnP News Bot in forum News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-13-2006, 01:00 PM
  3. [Green Ronin] Green Ronin Online Store: Big Product Update
    By PnP News Bot in forum News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-31-2006, 07:26 PM
  4. [Green Ronin] Green Ronin Online Store: Big Product Update
    By PnP News Bot in forum News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-31-2006, 06:14 PM
  5. [Green Ronin] Green Ronin at GenCon
    By PnP News Bot in forum News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-19-2006, 10:28 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •