Pc death; bad dm or great dm?

[Vrath]

If anyone who can start a poll is reading this... well I think it would be interesting to get some perspective.

As a dm I have very mixed feelings about Pc deaths and party wipes. I tell my players all the time "This world exists apart from the Pc's, the npc's and monsters are not all keyed to the party level, I won't force an unfair encounter on you but I will let you get yourself into one by doing something foolish. If the level 5 fighter wants to smack the king in the face you will most likely get yourself killed." When they do something foolish and get killed I consider that par for the course. On the other hand I try to balance "forced" encounters so that they are interesting, challenging, and fair.... now when I say "forced" I am referring to encounters which are nearly impossible for the players to avoid (ie a bandit ambush while traveling or wolf attack at night in the wild). When a Pc dies in this type of encounter I usually feel like I have somehow failed as a dm by making the fight too hard or hitting the party when they were too weak and I should have let them rest. Sometimes I also feel like this type of thing adds a much needed sense of realistic danger to the world... I have played in some tedious games before where I was never afraid of anything and none of the pc's ever died... it may sound strange but as a player I have enjoyed the games where my character died or had some really close calls much more than games where every fight used a predictable 20% of our daily resources and we rested safely after every 4 encounters.

[mrken]

While I don't tend to kill off PC's, I let them die when and where they choose. This coupled with no one ever being reserected in any game I have run, makes the PC's a tad more careful in their choice of who they smack around. lol Maybe that is why they don't walk around killing everyone or everything they see.

[Tomcat1066]

Stupid should hurt. If the character does something stupid, he'll pay. Now, how much the character pays can be dependant on how experienced the player is. A newbie player gets a bit more latitude, but he's still going to be punished somewhat. Not doing so only hurts suspension of disbelief for the other players. The trick is to not take it to far.

For an experienced player? If death happens, it happens. I just give them a chance to get out of it through role play. Maybe not much of one, but it still needs to be there. While they can opt to go the combat route, unless the encounter was pre-planned, it won't go their way.

To many players, from what I've seen, will assume that the DM won't kill them and will act accordingly. If they know you'll kill them, and then make it nearly impossible to come back, stupid doesn't happen nearly as much.

[kirksmithicus]

I've never liked killing the players off. I've often fudged rolls when the results would just derail the game entirely. I have even done a rewind (or the "J.R. ending" if you like) a time or two for a TPK. Which usually goes like this "okay were going to pick the game up outside the dragons cave again, you start forward but then suddenly have a bad premonition and decide it's just not worth the risk". It's lame, I know, but I put a lot more work into the game than the players and it just pisses me off when they do stupid things and screw up the game. After all, they've been playing long enough to know better. If one character gets killed for something stupid, well then, they can just roll up a new character, but TPK's just suck. Often, if I think the group is going to get slaughtered I let them know before combat begins that I think they are to weak to take the monster in direct combat. This gives them a chance to think of an alternative but if they insist on going ahead with combat I let them suffer the consequences, short of a TPK, and sometimes even then.

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

If anyone who can start a poll is reading this... well I think it would be interesting to get some perspective.

As a dm I have very mixed feelings about Pc deaths and party wipes. I tell my players all the time "This world exists apart from the Pc's, the npc's and monsters are not all keyed to the party level, I won't force an unfair encounter on you but I will let you get yourself into one by doing something foolish. If the level 5 fighter wants to smack the king in the face you will most likely get yourself killed." When they do something foolish and get killed I consider that par for the course. On the other hand I try to balance "forced" encounters so that they are interesting, challenging, and fair.... now when I say "forced" I am referring to encounters which are nearly impossible for the players to avoid (ie a bandit ambush while traveling or wolf attack at night in the wild). When a Pc dies in this type of encounter I usually feel like I have somehow failed as a dm by making the fight too hard or hitting the party when they were too weak and I should have let them rest. Sometimes I also feel like this type of thing adds a much needed sense of realistic danger to the world... I have played in some tedious games before where I was never afraid of anything and none of the pc's ever died... it may sound strange but as a player I have enjoyed the games where my character died or had some really close calls much more than games where every fight used a predictable 20% of our daily resources and we rested safely after every 4 encounters.

I agree with you.

I run mostly Star Wars game so I chalk it all up to the will of the Force. That and the main characters we see in the movies base a lot of their actions on their certain point of view. As Obi Wan says, ...you'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. This is a critical line in Star Wars and its the reason why in Episode III Anakin says, "From my point of view the Jedi are evil!" That was a carefully selected line.

So when my party of 1st level characters transporting a (legal) cargo of fuel to Kashyyyk freaked out and tried to fight their way out of a routine inspection by the Empire all because ONE player's point of view was that the Empire is going to screw us up because we have illegal cargo and a couple of stormtrooper rifles, etc... the results were the death of one PC, the capture of all of them and the impounding of their ship.

Had they acted casual and responded honestly they would have avoided this encounter that I had not planned for entirely.

PCs do stupid things based on their own points of views (and frankly, I call this EXCELLENT roleplaying!!!!) and they should suffer the consequences for those actions no matter what that entails, like having all of your limbs severed off by a lightsaber and left for dead on a lava planet!

[Greylond]

I GM with two principles in mind;

1) LTDFWTM: Let The Dice Fall Where They May. Random Rolls are good, the uncertainties are what makes it unexpected and fun! I don't fudge anything, for or against the PCs.

2) The World is a harsh place: Death happens, it happens more often to the stupid. When characters die it is usually a good learning experience for them and they get smarter. TPKs(Total Party Kill) are the ultimate in teaching a Group about team based tactics. There's an old saying, "The best steel is forged in the hottest fire." I play all of my NPCs(within Personality/Alignment) as if their lives(or other interests) are as important as any PC's. Just like a real person is going to put thier interests before yours.

[tesral]

I never plan to kill them. However once in a while they die.

That said I have a great many people that might wish to see them dead in game and they will plan to kill them. I don't think the subject need to be beaten to death. However I do feel that without a real chance of death, a certain tension is gone from the game. The specter of risk is turned and no danger. Thus dullness sets in.

PS: I never kill players, it gets you talked about and they are hard to find.

[Engar]

PS: I never kill players, it gets you talked about and they are hard to find.

Did your lawyer tell you to say that?


I kill PCs. Depending on the game I do it more or less often. I kill them when they deserve it for doing something stupid (like the low level character who decided to hoot, holler and moon a hill giant from over a football field away despite it otherwise ignoring him (can you hear the rock whistling through the air?). I kill them when rolls demand it (turned out to be short range and a critical hit). I also fudge sometimes if nothing more than a run of luck would cause death for a beloved character. Short of that I do my best to make each death funny, noble, significant, or somehow memorable. After all the time spent on a character it is the least I can do.

I too use any level monster for encounters and include both good and evil. Ever had a character given a valuable item by a wandering creature just because they liked the characters and felt it was more useful to them? How about had a powerful monster just want a bribe to leave them alone?

[cplmac]

I never plan to kill them. However once in a while they die.

That said I have a great many people that might wish to see them dead in game and they will plan to kill them. I don't think the subject need to be beaten to death. However I do feel that without a real chance of death, a certain tension is gone from the game. The specter of risk is turned and no danger. Thus dullness sets in.


I am in complete agreement with Tesral. I don't plan on killing any of the PCs, but sometimes it does happen. Just depends on how the dice roll.


PS: I never kill players, it gets you talked about and they are hard to find.

I seem to recall Tesral also saying something about it being difficult to hide the bodies on another thread.

[Stormhound]

I don't like killing PCs if the players are making a reasonable effort to play intelligently. I'll do it if they insist on being stupid, but I find that that sort of thing happens rarely as such players don't seem to hang around my table all that long.

That said, I make one thing clear up front: when I create a world, I make decisions about what areas are how lethal. I allow PCs to gather information before charging in, and if they insist on going somewhere that's too tough, I hit them with whatever is there. And who knows? Every so often, I get surprised by what they manage to take on.

[tesral]

Did your lawyer tell you to say that?

I don't have a lawyer. He's been ... ah ... missing for a while, that's it, missing.

[ronpyatt]

I plan out PC killings. In fact, tomorrow, I plan on killing one of the wizards in the party. It does not happen often, but I find it brings out some of the best in drama and player/party cohesion and roleplay to remind us all that death could happen. They don't laugh in face of death, but at the same time, they are the heroes. I've known many players that get emotionally attached to their characters, and when one dies or they switch characters the players can get a little sad for the loss. I take player reactions into account in these killings, because some players cannot handle the death of their character. Some can.

[agoraderek]

i've dm'd tpks, had characters die in my games, fudged a roll or two, all of that. sometimes characters have to die. circle of life. but i've never had anyone say it wasn't fun. now, i've had to wipe the tear from the cheek of a player when his 15th level wizard ate it, but he knew it was his time to go...

I plan out PC killings. In fact, tomorrow, I plan on killing one of the wizards in the party.

premeditated? you do know we're in TEXAS, right?

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

I GM with two principles in mind;

1) LTDFWTM: Let The Dice Fall Where They May. Random Rolls are good, the uncertainties are what makes it unexpected and fun! I don't fudge anything, for or against the PCs.

2) The World is a harsh place: Death happens, it happens more often to the stupid. When characters die it is usually a good learning experience for them and they get smarter. TPKs(Total Party Kill) are the ultimate in teaching a Group about team based tactics. There's an old saying, "The best steel is forged in the hottest fire." I play all of my NPCs(within Personality/Alignment) as if their lives(or other interests) are as important as any PC's. Just like a real person is going to put thier interests before yours.

You summed it up nicely, Greylond.

Thoth-Amon

[ronpyatt]

My attempt at killing one of the PC's failed. The defenders in the party did their job very well. The player now knows his character has been marked for death. I have 6 more encounters worth of attempts to finish the wizard off.