3.5e Kobolds are fodder

[tesral]

I would imagine a group of Kobolds if run correctly would use similar tactics as the Goblins in LoR, except that with the Kobolds, there would be all kinds of traps and concealed tunnels/ambush areas that would allow them to harrass the PCs without exposing themselves to retaliation.

I had the PCs that were running through one of my adventures so upset with a group of Kobolds that they retreated from the keep the Kobolds were in habiting and proceeded to burn the place down.

"Fall back and nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure." Never a bad policy where Kobolds are concerned.

The deal is the Kobolds I was dealing with were never even leveled. It wasn't the direct confrontation that was hard, it was they never confronted you directly. They would hit you from murder holes, lure you into dead falls, (cleverly designed so they could cross the triggers but big folk could not), and in general drive you to total distraction and injury.

The challenge of Kobolds has never lain in their combat skills, but their non combat skills and ability to prepare the ground.

[Skunkape]

"Fall back and nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure." Never a bad policy where Kobolds are concerned.

The deal is the Kobolds I was dealing with were never even leveled. It wasn't the direct confrontation that was hard, it was they never confronted you directly. They would hit you from murder holes, lure you into dead falls, (cleverly designed so they could cross the triggers but big folk could not), and in general drive you to total distraction and injury.

The challenge of Kobolds has never lain in their combat skills, but their non combat skills and ability to prepare the ground.

LOL!

That's a pretty good description of what my PCs had to deal with. The place was pretty much honey-combed with secret passages and objects that the Kobolds could hide in.

In fact at one point the PCs chased a couple of them up a set of stairs into a tower only to find a room at the top full of barrels. So it became a game of wac-a-mole or wac-a-Kobold as the case may be.

They finally got tired of trying to find the Kobolds and ended up rolling the very barrels the Kobolds were hiding in. Granted, it was a dizzying bumpy ride for the Kobolds, but by the time the PCs realized that the barrel they rolled down the stairs had the Kobolds in it and got back down the stairs, the Kobolds had fled into their secret passage network.

But yeah, the best way to play them is to use their prep of the surrounding terrain! Oh, and these Kobolds were not leveled either and the as the PCs watched the keep burn, a couple of them noticed quite a few Kobolds escaping out a tunnel, a couple hundred yards away at the edge of the forest.

[Oldgamer]

Kobolds, when given character classes can be quite deadly. Two circumstances:

1. 1st level group of 5 (normal characters, barbarian, pally, rogue scout, sorcerer, cleric) was severely damaged by one kobold druid and his wolf animal companion. He sat off in the woods and Produced Flame over and over at their butts, (1 minute/level and he was 3rd level druid I think). He nearly took out the rogue and the sorcerer as his wolf almost killed the pally before the barbarian was able to out pace him and catch him for a brutal beat-down, raged half orc style.
2. Another 1st level group in Worlds Largest Dungeon came upon a level 3 Kobold Ranger and his boss the level 3 Kobold Druid who had a Flaming Sphere prepared (they have good spots and listens) when they heard the group coming to the door. The FS smashed into anyone coming into the doorway as the Ranger peppered them with arrows. The Druid would heal the Ranger anytime someone was lucky enough not to not get hit by the FS and get a shot in, so they kept going like the Energizer Bunny.

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

Seems that kobolds, and to a lesser degree, goblins were always fodder since the '70s. It took a clever Dm to remedy this. One thing i do like about 4.0 is that they got their respect.

Thoth-Amon

[tesral]

Seems that kobolds, and to a lesser degree, goblins were always fodder since the '70s. It took a clever Dm to remedy this. One thing i do like about 4.0 is that they got their respect.

Thoth-Amon

Among the more intelligent of the gamers they have always had respect. They never needed to get it. That is the point we have been making here. All 4e is doing is holding the DMs hand and showing him exactly the points to hit to get the results we have talking about.

It is neither rocket science, a sudden change, or a major discovery. It's Kobold business as usual.

[MooseAlmighty]

All 4e is doing is holding the DMs hand and showing him exactly the points to hit to get the results we have talking about.

Isn't that a great thing for new DMs?

After some experience, they'll be whipping up devious creations of their own!


Frankly a lot of these threads feel like they carry an expectation that anyone playing DnD should have the knowledge of a 30-year vet; it's an elite hobby so hit the bricks if you're too dumb to get it right away; published worlds are for lazy people, etc.

Or maybe I just need a couple weeks away from the boards to game and have fun.

[tesral]

Isn't that a great thing for new DMs?

After some experience, they'll be whipping up devious creations of their own!

Perhaps, but the information has never been missing.

Let's see. 0e D&D "Monsters and Treasure" Ugh, the monsters are not even in alphabetical order. How did we ever play this? By Hera's Hoary Hearthkeeping how? Well, no Kobolds. On to AD&D

AD&D 1e Monster Manual: Has Kobolds, absolutely no social or behavioral suggestions other than "hates all other life". Typical of the era. Conclusion, without DM creativity 1e Kobolds are fighter fodder.

AD&D 2e Monstrous Compendium: Mentions Kobold waves of over whelming odds and also mentions using traps.

AD&D Monstrous Manual: Much the same, but more social data.

D&D 3e Monster Manual: The traps get first mention. Waves are less preferred and luring prey into traps is the prefered method of attack.

D&D 3.5 Monster Manual: Much the same text, traps first.


Conclusion: Kobolds have evolved from an AD&D kill'm by the bucket monster to the devious traps and ambush makers we have now. 3.5e has them fully evolved as ambush and trap preferring small creatures. I also remember quite a few Dragon articles on the subject. Forgive me if I don't go digging for them right now.

4e adds on that by giving you some additional tatics. However they are fully fleshed as nasty ambushers by 3.0. Treated as such in AD&D 2e by those that care to. By the book 3.5 Kobolds are not fodder.



Original source: RPG modivational posters, lost the URL.

[Dimthar]

Are 3.5 Kobolds "Fodder"?

No if handled correctly.

Did some DMs ran 3.5 Kobolds as "Fodder"?

Yes, and the very fact this thread exists is proof of it.

Are there any DMs that think that 4E helps them (by holding their hands and babysitting every step of the encounter) to not run Kobolds as "Fodder" by using the "Additional Tactics mentioned in the previous post"?

Yes, which at the end means more people having good experiences while battling Kobolds.

...

Is anything else we are discussing here? Oh yeah!! Valdar's post reminded me ... Strategies on how to run Kobolds so they don't end being "Fodder". Thanks Valdar ..

.

[Valdar]

They're not particularly intelligent, but they're very crafty. Crafty enough to know that in a straight-up fight, their best strategy is to scatter in all directions.

Last game I ran, a PC fell into a pit trap that had a nasty monster in it. The Kobolds saw this, grabbed their javelins, and raced to the edge of the pit, screaming "Fair Fight! Fair Fight!".

To a Kobold, a fair fight _is_ chucking javelins at you from the top of a pit while you deal with one of their "pets". Squaring off one-on-one with you on level ground isn't a fair fight for them at all- they know they'll get creamed.

[Dimthar]

This must likely is effective when used against only one opponent. But is common to see (movies, tv shows, etc) smaller creatures bringing down a big guy/monster buy using lassos to inmobilize it.

Also they may try to put out the "light / torches" to force the victims to fight in the dark.

[tesral]

Also they may try to put out the "light / torches" to force the victims to fight in the dark.

A Kobold shaman with an "out with the lights" spell. That could be fun. Not darkness, that doesn't stop the torchs from burning.

This must likely is effective when used against only one opponent. But is common to see (movies, tv shows, etc) smaller creatures bringing down a big guy/monster buy using lassos to inmobilize it.

A variation would be clotheslining. Placing wires above the heads of the kobolds but in shoulder-neck range of larger creatures. Trip wires could be strung this way or the wire itself could be the trap. Toss a few javelins, run in plain view. Even if the larger creatures spot the thin lines in the semi dark they work to break off pursuit.

Tension release traps as well. It's the tension of the line that holds the trap closed. Release the trip wire and all hell breaks loose. Mix and match types.

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

"Among the more intelligent of the gamers they have always had respect."

I agree. I was speaking of the rules...the game, not about "intelligent" gamers. Btw, just because many DM's didnt run them to their potential, doesnt not in any way mean those folks werent intelligent. Your wording is condenscending.

"They never needed to get it. That is the point we have been making here."

I was making the same point in a round-a-bout way.

"All 4e is doing is holding the DMs hand and showing him exactly the points to hit to get the results we have talking about."

Yes and no. 4.0 made them more dangerous by way of rules and design, unlike the earlier editions. Even in earlier editions, many writers saw the error of many DM's, writers, and players based off of the way the game was written, both in the MM, and in the modules. So in response, there were many articles in Dragon that taught players to go beyond the MM and kick in the imaginative juices. E.g. the special forces kobolds (not sure of the title for it's been 20 year or more ago). It was then that kobolds started getting their respect by a great many more DM's.

I love kobolds and even goblins, and since the '70's, i made sure to make them dangerous. I would agree that many DM's throughout the 30 year history... many were teens, mind you, and as such just followed the rules, but the good players always made the "fodder" dangerous.

Would you believe i ran across a DM, just before 4.0's release that tried to make them fodder. We had a vote and i was voted to run the campaign from here on out. The players were quite surprised just how awesome even the lowliest creatures can be when ran by an intelligent DM. Believe me when i say, they assume everything is dangerous now.

Moral of the story, you can play a fun game by the rules or you can play a fantastic game when using a little imagination and infusing that imagination into your games.

To me, Kobolds equals traps, deception, poisen, and a good use of the enviornment, amongst other things... and yes, they were always vicious, just not written into modules and the old MM's that way.

Sounds like our campaigns are equally deadly. My hat goes off to you for seeing the potential in all Gygax's lil creatures and running, no doubt, deadly, creative, and fun campaigns.

Thoth-Amon

[tesral]

Just for a switch up, the Kobold in Folklore, the wikipedia article. Fairly accurate from my other reading.

The kobold is a sprite of German folklore. Although usually invisible, a kobold can materialise in the form of an animal, fire, a human being, and a mundane object. The most common depictions of kobolds show them as humanlike figures the size of small children. Kobolds who live in human homes wear the clothing of peasants; those who live in mines are hunched and ugly; and kobolds who live on ships smoke pipes and wear sailor clothing.

There is more of course. Typical of the AD&D era the critter was hijacked and made into something totally different.

[Grimwell]

I'd counter that D&D, as designed, has zero intent to live up to traditional folklore. Gygax and the others at the beginning took all kinds of inspiration from it, but then they twisted it as hard as they needed to in order for fun to be served.

Such as Kobolds, who definitely don't match their folklore.

[tesral]

I'd counter that D&D, as designed, has zero intent to live up to traditional folklore. Gygax and the others at the beginning took all kinds of inspiration from it, but then they twisted it as hard as they needed to in order for fun to be served.

Such as Kobolds, who definitely don't match their folklore.

Oh yea, they plundered the stores of folklore and myth without mercy and took no prisoners.

Some creatures, like the Banshee I have seen fit to return to their more traditional roots. Others like the Kobold I have not.

It's never a bad thing to understand the roots of many of these beasts, even if you never intend to do a thing with it. Knowledge is power. I'm not suggesting D&D Kobolds should be returned to their German roots. Heck, I'm rather fond of the little lizardly guys as is. But we should understand those roots.