Good News for Gamers as a Whole

**teckno72** · 06-01-2008, 12:46 AM

Recently, White Wolf's Exalted: Dreams of the First Age and Wizards of the Coast's fourth edition of D&D have completely sold out in their first runs. This shows there is definitely still a desire for fantasy roleplaying products in the world today. I think this is for the forseeable future, but I have no data to back that up. I just think it's a pleasant thought in this time of gloom and doom. Oh, and Dark Heresy by Mongoose also sold out on its first print run. I know that the fourth edition of D&D will get a second print run for sure.

**tesral** · 06-02-2008, 10:30 AM

Exalted YEA! 4e, not so much.

**Valdar** · 06-02-2008, 12:19 PM

I assume you mean sold out to retailers? Hopefully it's not a launch like some of the recent consoles where you just couldn't get one...

**gdmcbride** · 06-02-2008, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Valdar

I assume you mean sold out to retailers? Hopefully it's not a launch like some of the recent consoles where you just couldn't get one...

All it means is that distributors and direct marketing sales have bought out the entire run. Likely, it will remain easy to acquire in game stores for quite some time.

Still...I'm not sure I would dally on purchasing the books unless you are prepared to wait until August for the second printing. If demand is high (and it likely will be), then they could become quite scarce in certain markets.

Gary

**tesral** · 06-02-2008, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by gdmcbride

All it means is that distributors and direct marketing sales have bought out the entire run. Likely, it will remain easy to acquire in game stores for quite some time.

Ah I see, like the record sales of MS/Vista. They are all wholesale, not in the hands of consumers.

**gdmcbride** · 06-03-2008, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by tesral

Ah I see, like the record sales of MS/Vista. They are all wholesale, not in the hands of consumers.

It means a little more than that. Direct internet sales (like via Amazon and Buy.com) are definitely headed straight into consumers hands. And those sales numbers have been impressive.

In Vista's case, the great number of pre-sales includes the tremendous number of PCs getting Vista installed on them by default thanks to long ago negotiated contracts between Microsoft and manufacturers. RPGs have no equivalent to that. Store owners are not forced to order the book by anyone other than their customers.

What is true, is that internet sales are not enough to yet say that 4th edition is a hit. But they are powerful prognostic indicator. WotC obvious thought they and distributor orders were powerful enough that they immediately ordered another print run.

I expect the core books to do VERY well. What will be the real test is the adventures and the supplements that follow. For D&D 4th to be a real success it needs to keep moving books.

Gary

**tesral** · 06-03-2008, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by gdmcbride

For D&D 4th to be a real success it needs to keep moving books.

And I consider that truly unfortunate. The need to move books is the sole reason we even have a 4e.

**fmitchell** · 06-03-2008, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by tesral

The need to move books is the sole reason we even have a 4e.

Not really. 4e exists because a significant number of players were dissatisfied with 3.x, which in turn arose because a significant number of players thought AD&D 2ed needed a more modern and coherent rule set, which in turn arose because somebody thought 1ed needed rules to cover more situations, which in turn arose because somebody thought Original D&D needed expansion and revision.

While there are some gamers who find their Perfect Rules somewhere, or house-rule a system until it becomes their Perfect Rules, a larger number will look to upgrade and improve their experience by moving to newer versions, or different games entirely.

This may be hard to believe, but for those of us who don't have the time to tweak rules, or who don't want to write something new from the ground up, there are a few people who do such things for a living. In order for them to do it for a living, they need to get paid. To attract people to their product, said people eschew mimeographed pages in favor of well-bound books (Mongoose not withstanding), with attractive layouts, professional or at least semi-professional artwork, and lucid prose. To aid in such efforts, professional game writing people partner with (*gasp*) non-gamers like graphic designers, artists, and editors. Even more incredibly, they also rely on "marketers", who think up the best ways to sell their game books to other people, and "investors" who provide up-front money for all this activity. And here's where it gets weird: in order for the game-writing people to write games for a living, they have to sell enough books not just for themselves, but all these other people involved ... *and* with enough left over to reward the investor-people and fund the next set of books.

I know it's a lot to take in at once. Breathe deeply. I had trouble with the attractive well-bound books part. I still don't get why someone would want more than mimeographed pages, with those lovely incomplete and run-on sentences, those provocative typos made with an actual typewriter, that poorly but lovingly drawn line-art, and above all the intoxicating smell with the purply print that smudges on your fingers ... but some people are just strange.

**Valdar** · 06-04-2008, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by tesral

And I consider that truly unfortunate. The need to move books is the sole reason we even have a 4e.

And the reason we had any version before that of any game ever.

**tesral** · 06-04-2008, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by fmitchell

There are a few people who do such things for a living.

And that requires that they move books.

As to the perfect system, I have yet to see it. 4e will have people complain about the rules not working right to the same degree that every other edition has had people complain.

D&D by the nature of the game is a complex system. I seriously doubt it will ever be perfect. However if they keep making major changes like the jump from, 3e to 4e it will never even approch that. 4e is a zero start. Not an improvment of 3.5 They have said as much. I question the over all wisdom of such a move. I would be looking for gaffs and bobbles in the 3.5 system and smoothing them out. Make my book a must have to everyone playing the 3.5 game. Not throw everything they have so far in their face and demand they start buying the endless book-o-rama all over again.

**gdmcbride** · 06-05-2008, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by tesral

As to the perfect system, I have yet to see it. 4e will have people complain about the rules not working right to the same degree that every other edition has had people complain.

D&D by the nature of the game is a complex system. I seriously doubt it will ever be perfect. However if they keep making major changes like the jump from, 3e to 4e it will never even approch that. 4e is a zero start. Not an improvment of 3.5 They have said as much. I question the over all wisdom of such a move. I would be looking for gaffs and bobbles in the 3.5 system and smoothing them out. Make my book a must have to everyone playing the 3.5 game. Not throw everything they have so far in their face and demand they start buying the endless book-o-rama all over again.

Seeking perfection in RPGs, like seeking perfection in anything, is mostly a chasing after wind.

All versions of D&D have been money motivated. Even the hand-mimeographed, hand-stapled, hand-stickered brown box edition released in 1974 existed only because Gary Gygax thought it would be well received. You can go over to dragonsfoot.org and dig through the Gary Gygax Q&A section if you don't believe me. He was quite direct about this.

As far as 4th edition game designers, it is simply factually wrong to state they aren't trying to fix 3.5.

"3e got a lot of things right, but anyone who has played it for a time knows that it gets things wrong. There are also legacy issues with the game that have persisted unquestioned for years. 4e is all about taking the things that work in D&D, keeping them in the game, and fixing everything else." -- Mike Mearls, quoted from EN World

Though clearly you disagree on their path, it is also obvious that they too were trying to fix 3.5 and make it a better game.

I'm not saying 4th edition is a definite improvement. I still don't own the books. I have only read the very incomplete quick start rules in 'Keep on the Shadowfell' (a very mediocre module to be sure). But they were definitely trying to improve the game of D&D. Ask me in a week or two if they succeeded.

Gary

**Webhead** · 06-05-2008, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by gdmcbride

I'm not saying 4th edition is a definite improvement. I still don't own the books. I have only read the very incomplete quick start rules in 'Keep on the Shadowfell' (a very mediocre module to be sure). But they were definitely trying to improve the game of D&D. Ask me in a week or two if they succeeded.

I think this is pretty well stated. I'm (mostly) not really questioning WotC's intentions on making a better D&D experience...just whether or not their newest iteration will succeed in making me want to play D&D again. Only time will tell.

**teckno72** · 06-06-2008, 12:05 PM

I agree, Webhead. I'd really like to WANT to play D&D again. That would be nice, seriously. I've been burned out on it for years. Not that it's not a bad game, but I got tired of it (running it for at least a year on end). I started out with D&D as well.

It makes me feel jaded, but there's so much more out there to try now!

**Valdar** · 06-06-2008, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by gdmcbride

As far as 4th edition game designers, it is simply factually wrong to state they aren't trying to fix 3.5.

"3e got a lot of things right, but anyone who has played it for a time knows that it gets things wrong. There are also legacy issues with the game that have persisted unquestioned for years. 4e is all about taking the things that work in D&D, keeping them in the game, and fixing everything else." -- Mike Mearls, quoted from EN World

Mike Mearls has written a lot about this. The new design philosophy is "fun for everyone, all the time". Fighters spending the whole adventure taking their basic attack = bad. Wizards deciding when to use their big spell, and doing nothing the rest of the time = bad. Clerics doing nothing but healing, or requiring a party to have a cleric at all = bad. Rogues not being able to use their signature attack most of the time due to positioning or immune targets = bad. Even confirming crits, which looked great on paper, sucked in actual play.

I guess the designers wanted people to actually play D&D without house rules and have it not be a nightmare. Playing 3.5 as written is a game most of us don't want to play- the RPGA uses RAW, and I have not heard good things about it.

**Dimthar** · 06-06-2008, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by teckno72

Recently, White Wolf's Exalted: Dreams of the First Age and Wizards of the Coast's fourth edition of D&D have completely sold out in their first runs. This shows there is definitely still a desire for fantasy roleplaying products in the world today.

I can not find any reason for not being "happy" with the news of any RPG being sold out.

.