After Action Report - 4e Kobolds

[agoraderek]

I was trying to convey that this was a pointless argument that is derailing the thread, but I failed and succeeded in helping derail this thread. My apologies for getting you involved.

no worries, and you did the same thing i did with the general 4e bashing give it a home.

i am happy that the 4e did help someone learn to use an iconic pest more effectively. i honestly don thtink 4e will help people be better players, but from what i've read, at least as far as effectively running encounters, i think 4e will do a very good job of helping new dms run a game that will be challenging and fun for their players.

[Maelstrom]

*sigh*

Wow, this thread moved on over the weekend

My initial comment at the beginning was intended to draw the readers in by using a common stereotype of a classic D&D monster. Over my career I've also created some nasty kobolds in 3.5 and earlier just to keep the characters on their toes.

The stereotype that I was referring to was that Kobolds are great monsters to push up against fragile 1st level players due to their low hitpoints and general *according to stereotype*cowardice.

Kobolds in 3.5 could be given intelligence and tactics, given a few levels, nasty magic weapons (which I saw happen in one older module for 16th level characters... kobold with a arrow of human slaying or a wand of disintegration? Yuck!).

Did your DM said if there was something in the 4E Books (DMG or MM) that helped him make the kobolds more challenging? Could it be just that he is now more experienced?

These kobolds were stock kobolds from the 4e MM. Each type had characteristics that made them do their role well (stand up fighter, skirmisher, artillery, controller), so it made the feel of the battle that much better.

What I'm trying to make the point about is, that 4e just feels nice. Very smooth, streamlined, but still very interesting and challenging, right out of the gate with no modifications. Think about what a very experienced DM could do with this as a foundation... I don't think that you'll get it without giving it a fair trial with a reasonably good DM.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Any monster can be made effective...given the right enviroment and situation. Kobolds are a prime example... traps and using thier size to thier advantage.

I liked the write-up...BTW

My opinion of 4th Ed with respect to kobolds is that the Stats are far too tough... minions are ok (ish), but the stock ones given in the example adventure in the DMG are IMO far too tough.

I say this with respect to comparision to what has gone before... average Kobold 1st-2nd edition 1-4 hp...equated to -1 to hit, fourth edition 25-27... with +5 to +6 to hit!

It's now very rare that a character could possibly kill one with a single standard attack... a Magic-user had a roughly 50%chance of taking one of the old ones down with a magic-missile. (Automatic hit did 2-5 damage). But you rarely got more than a couple of xp for defeating them.

Now a good 1st level wizard (Int 18) using Magic Missile (admittedly now using a souped up to 2d4 +INT bonus) requires a MINIMUM of three missiles to kill one..AND needs to make attack rolls to do so.. it's a good job it's a "at will power...." because the wizard now only has a roughly 50-50 chance of actually hitting one... but you get 25 xp for a 1hp horde or 100 for the standard ones.

What I'm saying here is that the image of the "horde monster" has been souped over time to such an extend that "a cowardly nature, reliance of overwhelming numbers and traps" has largely been ignored in favour of making them a statistical balanced challenge...

[Aidan]

Actually, magic missile is Int vs. Reflex, and those darn buggers are hard to hit with a magic missile. Ray of frost is the at-will power you want to use to take out a kobold. Learned the hard way.

[Maelstrom]

Tell your DM to check out the new Dragon article for a bunch of new kobolds to terrorize you! I love the vermin handler and rat master

I just checked it out, and it is great!

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/dra...carnations.pdf

Take a look at page 2 at the Kobold Victory Chart, absolutely hilarious. This is a random chart of what happens when a Kobold actually brings down an adventurer.

This is definitely going to my DM...