The Late Starters Review of 4e

[Shadow Dweller]

whay did all his stuff get deleated. I realize that RPG communities dont want to make enemies of wizards of the coast and all that but were can a gamer go to disagree with the path our favorite hobby has been put on.

Looks like he chose to end his own rant(not saying rant is a bad thing), don't think it was mod/admin ordered from the look of the post. Regardless, I'm inclined to agree with Engar's sentiment from his last, un-edited post:

Classes...

Okay, enough is enough. I flipped though the rest, closed the book and put it on a shelf. When people convince me to play 4e I might try it, until then I am going to play DnD.

4e looks like it was made to apease console gamers and fans of NWN more than PaP gamers. Hopefully some of the new content coming out later this year entices me to give it another look, but untill then, I'll stick with 3.5 and homebrewed rules.

[ryan973]

Agreed. Its not a lost couse the idea is great they just need to make soem big steps back and a few more foward. mabie we will all notice the diffrence in a year or so when 4.5 come out.

[Engar]

I had gone through page by page (as I first read it) and said what I liked/disliked (and there were few serious criticisms, mostly just "that's nice" or "why do that, oh well, I just won't" kind of stuff. Then I got to the classes and whoa. I thought, none of that stuff up to now matters in the least compared to this... so I just went back and deleted the posts to save everyone's time. Not saying I cannot or will not play it, it is just so different from the past editions that it really stands alone vs. being a new version. Now I do not like it, possibly because I am resisting change or stubborn or overly nastalgic, but I did not say anything nastier than the preceding or use foul language. I just self censored since my earlier ramblings (roll method 2 is badly designed...blah, blah) seemed senseless in light of much much greater issues (classes are completely altered) and I was no longer so open minded for the rest of it either.

[Webhead]

4e looks like it was made to apease console gamers and fans of NWN more than PaP gamers. Hopefully some of the new content coming out later this year entices me to give it another look, but untill then, I'll stick with 3.5 and homebrewed rules.

I respectfully disagree, but I'll admit that I've not read all 3 books in their entirety yet and have not had an opportunity to play it.

I'm an old-school console gamer (by that I mean Atari, Nintendo, Super Nintendo) and always have been, but not as much since the mid-90's. Though I did finally buy a Nintendo Wii a few weeks ago (always loved Nintendo).

I borrowed NWN from a friend and found it terribly dull and uninspiring. I got to 7th or 8th level and I uninstalled it and returned it to said friend. Never bothered with any of the expansions (the Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment games were much better).

I had no interest in MMO's until I was dragged into WoW because at least a dozen people I knew at work played it and wanted me to hang out with them in-game. I still probably play WoW less than about 2 hours a week, but it's okay for a little diversion.

4e is growing on me. I was resistant to it at first. Some of the changes are startling at first read.

I have romanticized memories of playing 2e, but that was less about the game system and more about the people I was playing with. I get a generally unpleasant taste in my mouth when I think about 3e. This is due more to the game system than the people I was playing with. Or maybe it's due to how I've witnessed people play with the game system. So, I don't really want to change players, I want to change game systems. That's fine if I want to play non-D&D games. There are plenty of the out there. But many of my players are attached to D&D-esque fantasy and many are attached to the d20-type game conventions.

I guess 4e is kind of a middle ground. It seems to make enough of D&D tolerable to me that I would actually try playing it and (if they can get over their knee-jerk revulsion to change) I'm sure my players would appreciate playing D&D-esque fantasy given the choice.

At my table, there's currently two sides:

1) If we're playing an RPG, we'd prefer it to be d20 and we'd prefer it to be D&D 3.X.

AND

2) If we're playing an RPG, I'd prefer it to be anything but d20 or D&D 3.X.

Sure, I'm outnumbered, but I get to have an opinion too. We're all long-time friends so we want to make sure we're all having fun. Maybe...just maybe, 4e (when I dare to suggest playing it) will have everyone in the group enjoying D&D and not just everyone else.

Sorry... Rambling...

[Engar]

This is the place for rambling. I rambled so much (lots of posts earlier) I deleted myself out of embarassment. Well, that and I got too closed minded about 4e. Still am, just about running it though. I have to like a game system to storytell. I think that is reasonable. I prefer to like it when I play too, but it has less impact.

[Webhead]

This is the place for rambling. I rambled so much (lots of posts earlier) I deleted myself out of embarassment. Well, that and I got too closed minded about 4e. Still am, just about running it though. I have to like a game system to storytell. I think that is reasonable. I prefer to like it when I play too, but it has less impact.

I try to keep an open mind and not judge things until I've given them a fair chance.

I agree, there are some games that I will play, but you would not get me to run them. Then there are those (admittedly very few...open mind and all) that I just don't have interest in playing either.

I've been GMing for a better part of my role playing career and I genuinely enjoy the experience when everybody gets into the game. But I have to get something out of it too, especially if I'm going to be spending so much time with the game.

I have fond memories of telling wild stories and having great fun with D&D. That's why a part of me hasn't entirely given up on the franchise as much as my most recent experiences have me wanting to. There is the promise of something fast, wild and fun about 4e which is why I'm taking the game in stride until I can really assess the game's merits and failings. It will have them too, just like every previous edition had them. I guess it just comes down to whether or not it makes D&D feel "fun" again to me. Before I sat down to start reading 4e, D&D was one of the very last RPGs that I wanted to play (and nearly on the list of those that I had no interest in playing at all).

More rambling...

[Engar]

Perhaps it will bring some people back. I just love spells. Why kill spells? I know, I know, they are powers now and listed under the class. This is DnD man! This is wizards and spells and towers and magic! This is finding a scroll as a mage and jumping up and down like a kid at Christmas (until it turns out to be a stupid treasure map and you hand it back to the fighter while the rogue almost knocks you down tryng to see over his shoulder). This is Dungeons and Dragons! I know it is not in the title, but it is no worse than not having any dungeons or not having any dragons! It's like playing Top Secret with no spies, Starwars with no jedi, Gurps with no...well, I don't know I never played Gurps...

[Webhead]

See, and (at the risk of starting up a cascade of related posts) I don't view spells as being "gone", but just changing how they are gained and used. A Wizard still has his spellbook, but now "spell memorization" is really just transmutted into your limit of spells per encounter/day.

Not sure about what 4e will mean in terms of spell scrolls (haven't read Magic Items yet), but I don't see why they wouldn't exists. Certainly a DM could rule that scrolls are just an extra one-shot spell like always.

Anyway, I don't mean to travel too far down that path.

Some folks feel that 4e has lost a bit of the "spirit of D&D". I think it's certainly a matter of perspective. I still see the "D&D" in 4e. A different flavor of D&D perhaps, but still recognizable as the fantasy game world that I've been playing in since discovering the hobby. Not everybody likes every flavor though, and that's okay too.

[Engar]

But the excitement over that scroll (if it exists) is gone. It adds nothing to your spellbook, which in my campaigns have always been a wizards prize.

I once had a renowned rogue steal the spellbook of the party wizard and replace it with a similar looking book of childrens fables. Talk about everything else can wait. Sorry princess, save yourself... Dragon ate your brother, yeah, we all have problems... And all the rest of you better have my back on this one unless you plan on walking from now on (hadn't walked since teleport)...

Of course in 4e that would never fly because it might hurt the mage's feelings.

[Webhead]

I wouldn't say that scroll excitement is entirely gone. By the book, it doesn't say that you can add scrolls to your spellbook, but considering you limit to spellcasting, having a scroll or two still means you've got spells up your sleeve that you couldn't cast otherwise.

And "spellbook theft" is still a viable (and painful) option against Wizards in 4e. All of the Wizard's Daily Spells, Utility Spells and Rituals are all contained in the spellbook and can't be "prepared" without it. The Wizard isn't completely screwed as he can still call upon his At Will and Encounter Spells (which is nice), but losing his spellbook will rob him of his most powerful and most versatile spells. Definately want to keep tabs on it.

[Aidan]

But the excitement over that scroll (if it exists) is gone. It adds nothing to your spellbook, which in my campaigns have always been a wizards prize.

You didn't read far enough. There are things called rituals - basically those utility spells that nobody bothered to memorize -- Tensor's Floating Disc, Magic Mouth, Raise Dead -- some oldies but goodies. They take time to cast and use material components. They can also be inscribed on a scroll, or written in a book. Some of the more powerful and long lasting spells are now rituals.

[Valdar]

You didn't read far enough. There are things called rituals - basically those utility spells that nobody bothered to memorize -- Tensor's Floating Disc, Magic Mouth, Raise Dead -- some oldies but goodies. They take time to cast and use material components. They can also be inscribed on a scroll, or written in a book. Some of the more powerful and long lasting spells are now rituals.

Yes. Basically, the spells that you wouldn't have wasted a memorization slot on anyway. Magic Mouth is actually going to get _more_ play now that you don't have to choose it over Magic Missile.

[Engar]

First, you got me to open the book again.
Second, you are correct about rituals and they do make me happy. Still defensive, but jovial too.

[Webhead]

First, you got me to open the book again.
Second, you are correct about rituals and they do make me happy. Still defensive, but jovial too.

...

[Engar]

Just out of curiosity. I am a freshly relocated teacher with most of the summer off aside from one road trip and my TX ACP (alt cert prog). Hence I have tons of free time right now to be here posting all day, all night, or until my wife beats me just out of fairness. I also have no gaming group atm (sadly, they stayed in IL with their wives and children *traitors!*). So my point being, and I focus this on all you DFW gamers here, and there are quite a few thank God, why are you here bs'g with me instead of out there planning an adventure to invite me into? I mean I can run the thing if I have to, but heck, this is your town right? I am sort of like the guest and all.