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Thread: D&D 4th Q&A and Suggestions

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    Exclamation D&D 4th Q&A and Suggestions

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    Hello Everyone, I had thought about posting this in Wizard's community at first but...well...I like this community WAY better. So here's my thought. I know I have my share of questions about the new system even after paging through the new books. So how about us seasoned game masters and players put ourselves a little Pen and Paper Games Q&A and design our own table rules?

    To Start out I have two very big questions:
    1) Why does the Fighter have all access to armor EXCEPT plate?: Does this seem logical to anyone else? They are THE tanking class correct? So why only the paladin?

    and

    2) Can someone help me understand designing monster's and humanoid npc's from scratch. Basically I've been reading and it seems so...well...up to the gamemaster..and while that's great. I was hoping for a little more foundation on how to create a monster or npc.

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    Although I may be eventually moving to 4E, I would have to agree that it makes no sense that a fighter doesn't have access to plate armor. This being said, I also don't think that a first level fighter will be able to afford plate armor since it is usually one of the more pricey types of armor (or at least it is in 2E).

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    Regardless if they can afford it at base, it's a little rediculious(sp?) that they have to burn a feat/mult-class/what they hell ever just to use plate(is there a difference between full/half plate? getting my "books" tonight, so don't know yet.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Dweller View Post
    Regardless if they can afford it at base, it's a little rediculious(sp?) that they have to burn a feat/mult-class/what they hell ever just to use plate...
    I find myself tending to agree, but I'll wait until I've had more time to ponder (and hopefully time to actually play) before I make a decision on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Dweller View Post
    (is there a difference between full/half plate? getting my "books" tonight, so don't know yet.)
    By the book, no. They treat armor in broader categories (which I actually like). The "Plate" category covers any armor made from large metal plates. The next "step down" is Scale which is any armor made from smaller linked or overlapping pieces (probably including splint mail and banded mail). A DM may decide that half-plate is really just a specialized form of Scale armor and may assign it stats as such, or they may just lump it in the same category with "full plate" and run with that. Scale offers slightly less protection but is not as encumbering and does not have the check penalty that Plate does.
    Last edited by Webhead; 06-12-2008 at 10:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cplmac View Post
    This being said, I also don't think that a first level fighter will be able to afford plate armor since it is usually one of the more pricey types of armor (or at least it is in 2E).
    4e makes basic armor (especially Plate armor) far more affordable than previous editions. I think this is in part to allow beginning characters to have it (which has me thinking that Fighters probably should start proficient in Plate) and in part out of a conceptual switch from "ceremonial plate" to "raw battlefield plate". Much less about artistry, aesthetic appeal and custom-crafted fittings, and more about covering people with big pieces of metal. For a fantasy setting, that works for me. If a player wanted to buy "custom-fitted ceremonial plate armor", then I would charge them much more that what is in the book".

    My 2 cents...
    Last edited by Webhead; 06-12-2008 at 11:05 AM.
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    I checked Wizards, and this debate is on-going. I don't know why they left out Plate.

    Perhaps it is because the fighter is a weapons specialist, and plate makes less sense on a fighter than a paladin. There may be other reasons as well: Character balance; Future classes that are kin to the fighter might include plate (Knights?); The check penalty would be an unfair disadvantage to the fighter.
    Then again, a fighter can learn plate. PHB page 212: "You can take feats to learn the proper use of other kinds of armor."

    As far as the monster design is concerned, I'll have to study the MM a little more. There is a pattern there, I just have to wrap my head around it. My copy will not be here (delayed, and I pre-ordered in Feb!) until late July.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronpyatt View Post
    Perhaps it is because the fighter is a weapons specialist, and plate makes less sense on a fighter than a paladin. There may be other reasons as well: Character balance; Future classes that are kin to the fighter might include plate (Knights?); The check penalty would be an unfair disadvantage to the fighter.
    Then again, a fighter can learn plate. PHB page 212: "You can take feats to learn the proper use of other kinds of armor."
    .
    Following this train of thought, perhaps it was assumed that "Plate" was for "Nobles" only, Paladins being perhaps some type of "Church sponsored Knight" were allowed and trained to use it.

    Most likely it was just a victim of the overall "Balance" thing. Is there something showing that maybe by taking off heavy armor they gave an extra "Flexible Point/Feat" that can be allocated as you wish? To promote Non-heavy armor combatants (e.g. Archer)

    .
    Last edited by Dimthar; 06-12-2008 at 12:08 PM.
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    I think of plate armor as something only knights bother with, and in my mind, a paladin is much closer to a knight than a fighter is.

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    Here's another one ... and I've only skimmed the PHB so "RTFM" is an acceptable answer.

    Is there any rule actually preventing certain daft combinations of races and classes? Can I have a Tiefling Paladin? A Half-Elf Rogue? A Halfling Warlord?

    Just imagining a hellborn fiend sticking to the straight and narrow despite being sorely tempted, or a squeaky voice urging his fellows to victory, just makes me smile.

    And actually, is a Half-Elf Rogue that daft? What's wrong with a swashbuckling thief, making ladies swoon as he swings out the window? "They seek him here, They seek him there, Those watchmen seek him everywhere. Is he a human? Is he an elf? That damned, elusive Androgelf!"
    "On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
    - Charles Babbage (1791 - 1871)

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmitchell View Post
    Is there any rule actually preventing certain daft combinations of races and classes? Can I have a Tiefling Paladin? A Half-Elf Rogue? A Halfling Warlord?
    No race/class restrictions. In fact, my first 4ed character is a Tiefling Paladin. I'm looking to see if my paladin can dip in and multi-class as a rogue.
    One interesting feature for the Half-Elf is the 1st level choice of an additional Encounter Power from the list At-Will powers from a class not his/her own.

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    There was a lot of historical debate in the "No Plate for Fighters" thread (which I started, btw ), but the best reasoning I heard was that scale was inferior in the heroic tier, but could be made superior in the paragon tier with one feat (same AC, no check). So basically giving the two classes different "flavors" of roughly equivalent armor, and not making scale armor (and all the other heavy armors) be "newbie plate" that has no purpose in the game beyond 3rd level.

    No restrictions to race/class combos, like 3e, but even less restrictions in 4e- now class/alignment restrictions are gone. Even Paladins can be any alignment as long as it matches their god.

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    Wow, Thanks for the support everyone! Great thoughts all around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valdar View Post
    There was a lot of historical debate in the "No Plate for Fighters" thread (which I started, btw ), but the best reasoning I heard was that scale was inferior in the heroic tier, but could be made superior in the paragon tier with one feat (same AC, no check).
    Thanks Valdar! after reading what you said I had a closer look at Paragon Feats...First let me explain to everyone the difference between scale and plate armor in fourth Edition. Scale +7 AC, no armor check penalty (ACP), -1 speed. Plate +8 -2 ACP, -1 speed. Valdar is correct in his findings. At paragon tier you can take a feat which not only gives the Scale a +1 to AC but removes the speed penalty...making it superior to plate. If your character is a "armor fiend" though you can take a similar feat for plate but it only gives you +1 to AC and that's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ronpyatt View Post
    There may be other reasons as well: Character balance; Future classes that are kin to the fighter might include plate (Knights)
    I think you may be on to something here looking at the cleric for example they can now only use up to chainmail armor when they used to wear plate as well. Same could be said about Rangers and chainmail.


    Quote Originally Posted by fmitchell View Post
    Is there any rule actually preventing certain daft combinations of races and classes? Can I have a Tiefling Paladin? A Half-Elf Rogue? A Halfling Warlord?
    No there's no rules preventing this at all...in fact I think it's encouraged that you make interesting characters that were "prevented" in earlier versions. I think a Tiefling Paladin is a great choice...hmmm...ideas ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerath View Post
    No there's no rules preventing this at all...in fact I think it's encouraged that you make interesting characters that were "prevented" in earlier versions. I think a Tiefling Paladin is a great choice...hmmm...ideas ideas.
    There's also nothing that says Paladins only exist for "good" deities or causes. You could have a Paladin of Vecna if you wanted. It's just all about devotion to the set of beliefs of your patron.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    There's also nothing that says Paladins only exist for "good" deities or causes. You could have a Paladin of Vecna if you wanted. It's just all about devotion to the set of beliefs of your patron.
    I know it's a little off topic but a long time ago I was going to create a dark elf paladin of Lloth in my buddies Menzoberrazan boxed set for 2nd edition. Perhaps I could dust off that idea and finally put it to use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerath View Post
    I know it's a little off topic but a long time ago I was going to create a dark elf paladin of Lloth in my buddies Menzoberrazan boxed set for 2nd edition. Perhaps I could dust off that idea and finally put it to use.
    Evil characters in otherwise good parties are strongly discouraged in 4e. Though, in 4e, "discouraged" means they tell you something's a bad idea, some good reasons why it's a bad idea, and then tells you to go for it if you still want to, with your DM's permission. That's one of the biggest differences I've seen in 4e- the books are written in a very candid style, with good explanations like these where 3rd would have just said "Evil alignments are not appropriate for PCs" with no explanation.

    Now if they could only get over their apparent phobia of cross-referencing...

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