GURPS: How Much Of A Commitment?

[Farcaster]

I put wargaming on the side to pursue role playing. D&D's RP element relies heavily on the DM and combat within the system is more like a wargame. D&D combat as a wargame is a broken system as far as I am concerned. If I had to choose between D&D combat and another system, I would pick another system every time. D&D combat is overly complicated and not in a good way. The wargames I do know and love (BattleTech, Warhammer FRP/40K, VOR, Heavy Gear) are awesome and I've always fantasized about RP'ing as my characters. GURPS is the perfect system to do just that. GURPS + Wargame = PWNAGE!

Mul, I thought you hadn't played D&D before? If that's so, how can you possibly make such assertions?

[Mulsiphix]

Mul, I thought you hadn't played D&D before? If that's so, how can you possibly make such assertions?

Farcaster I do a lot more reading on this forum than I do posting. Ever since I came I've been asking questions and getting clarifications on things I do not understand. I've soaked up the information in every post that has crossed my path. I've read thousands of posts and the majority of that content was about D&D. Since 4E is coming about there has been A LOT of comparing between 3.X and 4E. From game mechanics people like, to the ones they hate, to what they would like changed, etc...

Away from this website I've been sitting in on D&D games in various online game clients. I've been downloading videos from youtube and myspace to see how a game of D&D is really played. I've read Dungeons & Dragons For Dummies, Dungeon Mastering For Dummies, and bits and pieces of just about any book I can find locally in a store. I've been on a maddening search to locate and read every extensively written (goes into actual detail about how the game was played, player turns, etc... not just a summaries version of what happened in a game) blogs, game journals, campaign wiki's, etc...

While I have no sat in as a player I have spent the last three and a half months digesting as much information as possibly could about D&D from many different angles. From what I have seen so far it is my opinion that a good chunk of D&D games are far more combat oriented than they are RP oriented. The combat in D&D is overly complicated and in a bad way. It is drawn out and just isn't how combat in a PnP should be handled. I believe that D&D really is two games in one. There is the RP game and the Combat game. They are so different and unincorporated that they are two different things indeed. From what I have read about 4E I am optimistic that combat will change, not so static, in 4E. D&D as an RP game can be awesome with the right DM but in your average game the RP seems to be an afterthought and Combat is the main focus. This is of course just my opinion but I do feel that I have enough information to make an educated decision, even if that decision is not based on personal game playing experience.

[MortonStromgal]

Good lord man just play one! thats the fun I saw D&D 1 on 1 adventures in the gaming store today... Now as anyone can tell D&D is not my game of choice but you should spend the hours playing not researching

[Maelstrom]

Hey Mul, I don't really understand the assertions you are making about D&D being overly complicated and broken... I'd love to see where you got these impressions and whether its misconceptions or just differences of tastes, but I hesitate to do that here and bog down a GURPS thread with such details. If you're game, start a topic and prepare for war in D&D land

[Mulsiphix]

I'd love to see where you got these impressions and whether its misconceptions or just differences of tastes, but I hesitate to do that here and bog down a GURPS thread with such details. If you're game, start a topic and prepare for war in D&D land

Bring it on. My initial post doesn't include any examples of where I got these misconceptions from but I will be happy to post some when I have a little more time to go digging through non-active threads.

[Farcaster]

Farcaster I do a lot more reading on this forum than I do posting. Ever since I came I've been asking questions and getting clarifications on things I do not understand. I've soaked up the information in every post that has crossed my path. I've read thousands of posts and the majority of that content was about D&D. Since 4E is coming about there has been A LOT of comparing between 3.X and 4E. From game mechanics people like, to the ones they hate, to what they would like changed, etc...

Mul,

Reading about something and experiencing it are completely different things. Every post, every article, every book is going to bring to the table the bias of its author. I for one am biased towards D&D and I found GURPS lacks the right feel for the type of fantasy games that I enjoy. I also personally think that the GURPS system as a whole is far more complicated than D&D, but just because I say it, does not make it the gospel truth.

The only way you are truly going to know which system is better for you is by trying them out. One certainly can't make an informed decision if the body of one's knowledge is based on the opinions and pontifications of others (and most notably, not people who will be players in your game). But, what I was questioning was the voice of authority from which you seemed to be speaking. If you've haven't played D&D or GURPS (or even flipped through the books and read the rules), how can you assert that one's combat system is better than the other, or that D&D's system is broken while the GURPS combat system better supports roleplay? It's a bit disingenuous to make a statement like that based only on regurgitated information.

In another context, imagine that I got all of my news from radio commentators. My vision of the world would be very skewed, would it not? While I may admittedly tune in to the talking heads of radio, I must take their words with a grain of salt and do my own research into the issues. Their insights might (occasionally) be valuable, but I cannot rely on their rhetoric alone to know the truth of things.

[Mulsiphix]

I've grown very frustrated with choosing a system. My time is so limited and I find both books intimidating. To be honest learning BattleTech was quite hard for me. It was VERY time consuming, quite confusing, and so hard to remember at times that I seriously wondered if it was worth pursuing. I stand today a BattleTech junkie and am glad I stuck with the program. However, while being a veteran BTech'er is nice, I still reflect upon the learning process as a sour cocktail of nostalgia mixed with mental terror. If it is at all possible I want to avoid learning both. I find both systems intimidating and the learning process for each system would be time consuming. The way I look at each system is, which am I prepared to learn 110%?

As a DM I feel it is my duty and obligation, on this I know many of you will not agree but I stand firm on this belief, that referencing rulebooks on my part is unacceptable during a game. Learning each system in this manner will prove far more time consuming than just reading the books once and being done with it. I believe that radio hosts are generally extremists that are hired to appeal to a specific target audience. I do not believe anybody here is offering me anything more or less than their genuine opinion. I agree that experience is needed to truly make an informed decision but I am not ready to make such a sacrifice in time if I can make an acceptable decision based on the opinions of those who are very experience and opinionated.

As long as people are willing to discuss topics with me I will continue to ask questions. Whether it is a smart thing to do or not is definitely in the eye of the beholder. I respect your opinion and definitely can see the logic behind it. However, I am more than willing to take the risk that comes with making this decision without actually experiencing each game system on my own before making said decision.

[Farcaster]

I'm not trying to disparage your approach to finding a game to play. I'm only advising caution when slinging mud at a system you've never played. I think this is good advice for all of us, actually. Ever since the announcement of 4e for D&D, I've been seeing a lot of people railing against a system that isn't even out yet. I was guilty of doing the same thing when 3rd edition came out, and I had to eat my words later on down the line when I actually read, played and understood the game mechanics. That is why I am reserving my judgement until I see the finished product. I may have a lot of What-the-Heck moments, but before I start shaking my fist and decrying WotC as the Anti-Christ, I will wait until I can see the whole picture.

[Mulsiphix]

I declared them the Anti-Christ over how they handle Magic The Gathering a very long time ago. Sadly they have yet to change anything I consider a negative into a positive. I still find myself paying boat loads of cash to buy the same republished cards over and over again as each new edition and expansion comes out

[Drohem]

I declared them the Anti-Christ over how they handle Magic The Gathering a very long time ago. Sadly they have yet to change anything I consider a negative into a positive. I still find myself paying boat loads of cash to buy the same republished cards over and over again as each new edition and expansion comes out

Egads! You got sucked into the CCG thing? You poor devil. Knowing my own complusive nature, I avoided that demon like the plague.

[MortonStromgal]

L5R ruled my wallet for many years. The thing is if you only ever want 1 system just go with gurps otherwise just pick up one that interests you and go from there. I really think GURPS is for you based on you collecting oWOD stuff from other threads. They had some GURPS 3rd conversion books for VTM, WTA, and MTA. If you only ever want to learn one system GURPS is it hands down. You can always pull things from other system.

[Mulsiphix]

Yeah I got sucked into the MTG thing. What was even more horrible is I thought it was a stupid hobby when I was younger and was big on video games. Somebody finally got me to sit down and play it and I was hooked. Being the completist that I am I collected as far back as I could. What was even worse is that I had a really hard time finding people locally to play with so I switched over to Magic Online and purchased everything all over again. I'm a real sucker for that game.

A while ago I was trying to decide between WOD and D&D. When I found GURPS I put WOD to the side because I thought the oWOD would very easily convert over to GURPS. So why limit myself to just WOD when I could get more settings out of GURPS hehe.

[Drohem]

A while ago I was trying to decide between WOD and D&D. When I found GURPS I put WOD to the side because I thought the oWOD would very easily convert over to GURPS. So why limit myself to just WOD when I could get more settings out of GURPS hehe.

Good thinking; and Steve Jackson Games already did most of the work with their 3e White Wolf line.

[Mulsiphix]

Very good to hear

[nijineko]

here are my two copper pieces....

i like both systems. i found that there was one character that i could make better in gurps than dnd, at least until they finally came out with something similar to what i wanted. and dnd "feels" fantasy-ish. it has all that history behind it.

i went through the same issues trying to pick which system i would spend my money on first, and which ones i would wait til they hit the bargin bin.

me personally, i've found gurps best if you want to cross systems. there is no better game for playing a lensman, john carter of mars, scarlet pimpernel, and riverworld crossover than gurps! when you want to not just mix and match genres, but toss them in the blender and hit the tim-the-toolman-taylor-super-maximum-overdrive-puree-liquidation-big-red-button, gurps is your game.

as for me personally, i've never happened to play fantasy in gurps... (just about everything but). so i haven't experienced it. leaving me with the impression that dnd has a more 'fantasy' feel. but hey, it really boils down to some of the good advice you've already received. which do you feel more comfortable with? which do you feel more proficient at teaching to someone, if it comes to that?

=D