Seems like an Official Position to me...

[Xaels Greyshadow]

This is some of the most disheartening news I have read in a long time. In the eyes of WoTC, 3.5 is already dead.


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dred/20071221

[rabkala]

My favorite position is the Flying Lotus. Mmmm... sweet lotus action.

When you put your grandmother in that nursing home, you really don't expect her to have much of a life anymore. It's just a waiting game until the final curtain like 3.5 waiting for 4e.... I kind of figured that a long while ago. Did you actually think they would continue support for the old stuff? At best, 3.5 will get a little back corner of the forums like previous out of print material does now. Soon they will wipe away the old trash, so there is room for the new.

[Xaels Greyshadow]

I know, I know. It's just so depressing to me. And to my wallet. I see them telling us so often that it will still be the same game, with some minor changes, but when you get into reading the individual columns, they say "It's drastically changed from 3E and totally different mechanic." So, which is it? Something we will recognize? Or something we will have to learn all over again?

[Mulsiphix]

Does anybody know if any of the major supplement companies (Goodman Games, Green Ronin, etc...) have made any announcements as to their plans to abandon 3.X when 4E becomes the standard?

[Digital Arcanist]

Take a look at Saga Edition and decide for yourself. Saga is like our little sneak peak at what 4e will most likely be. For me at least, its not a big change mechanically but more like a an old rock star reinventing himself for a new generation of fans. After reading Races and Classes, I'm sad to see Gnomes go but stoked for the lack of alignment and level adjustments. The "new" races are great and I like the redefinition of the classes.

[Mulsiphix]

When you say "new generation of fans" does that apply to 4E? That is are they trying to reinvent the game to appeal to a new target audience?

[Digital Arcanist]

I'm hesitant to say yes, but I think the target audience is different than 7 years ago when 3.0 hit the shelves. Most of us here are "older" and we all have seen the changes in the youth of today. Everything has gone the way of instant gratification. Heck, they have labeled this generation of kids "Generation Me" and I doubt kids are interested in the complex rules of 3.5 so WotC has streamlined things and is working to simplify the settings so that anyone can just sit down and almost instantly be up to speed with everyone else. Now the catch is that they still need to retain their player-base who, being mostly adults, have a goodly amount of disposable income.

So far I'm willing to put down my hard-earned pesos to get the core books.

I am saddened by the change in Dragon but heartened by the stability of Dungeon. Honestly, there are enough classes, spells, and feats in all the source books Dragon Magazines to keep us happy for quite a few years. What I am already tired of are the articles about the creation of 4e and long-term goals for the company. I want to see some new critters, and classes, and locales that are just for 4e.

[Mulsiphix]

So is the whole system changing towards speeding things up or just certain aspects like combat and/or character creation? Would more complex play be a possibility for those that wish it? That is do you think there will be optional rule supplements for those that wish to play with the current version of D&D but desire a more complex gaming system. All in all I'm just wondering if I should hold off on reading the 1,000+ pages of the 3.5 books and wait another six months before I can get my hands on the D&D 4E material. If the whole game is being simplified would it be wiser to learn v3.5 instead since I desire complexity and there are enough supplements available for 3.X to keep me busy the rest of my life? I value the massive loads of experience you all have and would very much like to hear what you would recommend somebody in my position with my desire to have a deep and fulfilling gaming experience.

[Xaels Greyshadow]

I'm wondering how long it's going to take to convert Ptolus to 4E? I want to purchase it as it seems to be the "Holy Land" of campaign sources, but what about now with 4E?

[Mulsiphix]

Monte has already published conversion rules for 3E to v3.5 for all of his major products. He is very good about updates and is EXTREMELY active in his company and projects. I have no doubt that 4E rules will be issued for Ptolus within the few months following the release of the 4E MM in July 2008.

[Digital Arcanist]

I plan of playing 3.5 for a long time and will mix in rules from earlier editions into my 4e games because I'm not entirely pleased with the rules changes they have published so far.....once again it is important to understand that things are not set in stone yet and some changes may be reversed still.

As for Ptolus...you have to understand Xaels that the stuff in that book isn't really suited for another campaign setting because it is just too powerful. You could probably integrate some things into an old-style FR campaign with little adverse effect. I wouldn't wait to pick the book up. The character creation isn't listed in the book and the monsters in it are basically run-of-the-mill D&D monsters.

[Mulsiphix]

How is Ptolus not meant for other D&D campaigns? One of its biggest selling points was virtually any portion of the book could be inserted into any ongoing D&D campaign you may be running.

From the Ptolus.com Ptolus FAQ:

I already have a campaign setting of my own. Why should I care about Ptolus?
It became clear to us when we started working on this product that there were already a lot of campaign settings out there -- how many can you really use at once, right? Well, the nice thing about Ptolus is that, while it is an entire setting, it is also just a single city and its environs. Because Ptolus epitomizes all the standard assumptions of the d20 System, it's a city you can insert easily into most d20 campaigns.


Just for reference Xaels Greyshadow:
With this much space, are you going to detail every building and person in the city?
No. Even if it were possible, it's not desirable. To run an urban fantasy campaign, you've absolutely got to have the freedom to create new locations and NPCs as needed. So what this book does is present locations in differing levels of detail:
1. Detailed, room-by-room keyed locations.
2. Detailed and described locations.
3. Locations briefly described.
4. Locations presented in name only.

Plus, the book has plenty of areas waiting for DMs to fill them in with their own creations.


There are lots of big RPG books out there -- anything new or different in this one?
Yes! We've been working on this a long, long time. Much of that time was spent investigating ways to make a book easier to reference as well as simply more useful. We modeled much of it not on existing roleplaying sourcebooks, but on travel guidebooks to create a book that is, in many ways, very different from anything anyone has seen before in the RPG hobby.
Ptolus is designed entirely from a DM's perspective (although the aforementioned Player's Guide is all from a player's perspective). As a longtime DM and DM advocate, Monte has focused extra energy to make this book not only easy, but actually a joy to use. This includes, but isn't limited to, the following elements:

• Footnotes with page references for every character, location, and organization as it is mentioned in the text.
• Color-coded parts and chapters (read more about this here).
• Multiple category-based indexes and a glossary.
• A highly detailed table of contents, with a mini-table of contents at the beginning of each part.
• Symbols and artwork used to create mnemonic devices to help manage all the locations.
• Where appropriate, a notation on each spread to refer you to the page where you can find the map associated with that page's contents.
• A new, easy-to-use stat block format for NPCs
• Loose sheets with both player and DM aids, including sheets (intended to be attached to a DM's screen) containing frequently referenced Ptolus material.
• Seven bookmarks—three cloth, and four cardstock with labels—to help mark important pages.
• And even more!

[Maelstrom]

So is the whole system changing towards speeding things up or just certain aspects like combat and/or character creation?

Take a look at www.enworld.org if you want a comprehensive list of what has been changed as part of D&D 4th edition. This site has done a remarkable job of piecing together all of the news that has been confirmed about what they plan on doing to it, and even has been able to get some exclusive questions/answers with WotC folks to clarify details.

One of the changes that interests me most are the description of combat in 4th edition. With attacks of opportunity and the requirement you remain almost motionless to get all of your attacks, combat in 3.5 is very static. Not so in 4th edition... they describe a rouge being able to jump off a wall over the head of an enemy to strike him in the back for example. The warlock class seems to have a large part of its abilities centered around moving characters around, again breaking up static combat.

Another major change is how spells/special abilities are treated. Instead of just having a set number of spells per day that you have to rememorize after a night of sleep, you will have some abilities that remain one use per day, some (less powerful abilities) that have one use per encounter, and others that have one use per round. This works out to mean a wizard will always have a spell to cast, even after a gruelling set of encounters.

All in all I'm just wondering if I should hold off on reading the 1,000+ pages of the 3.5 books and wait another six months before I can get my hands on the D&D 4E material.

It is really tough to say at this point. Much is being kept secret about 4th edition for many to make a judgement that you are definitely or definitely not going to make the leap. What I am waiting for is D&D Experience (DDXP) when will get the opportunity to try it for myself. I'm signed up to play it on the first day of the convention near the end of Februrary. I'll make sure to describe my experience here if noone else does.

I certainly don't think it won't hurt to peruse the 3.5 material if you have the time. That way you can make a more informed judgement when more information is available.

Incedentely, I'm also DMing at DDXP so if any want to try (or avoid) my style I'll be running some 3.5 eberron adventures.

[Xaels Greyshadow]

Thanks for the EnWorld posting. I just spent the last hour there reading and don't know what to say. I'm one of those "Hold out." types. What I see on the surface, and this is reflected by my current negative mindset only, is that they have decided to "Dumb down." the game for a younger "Teen." audience that wants to play mid to high level adventurers, but aren't or weren't smart enough in school and have had to have things simplified for them so they can figure out the mechanics. I could not find one thing represented that is not in a book mechanically now, IE: rogues flipping over enemies and springing off of walls and having extra attacks and on and on and on, that hasn't been published now! We will not be able to convert our characters of old to 4E it is written. We will have to buy "V-Minis" for our online games that come with a price tag aside from the already noted target $10 spot a month for the online subscription, then I have to buy a new book, $30 roughly, then pay an additional fee to access the precious PDF content. 4 Classes in the initial PHB for sure, everything else questionable at best. The promise of future books expanding the world that I and countless others have already expanded, each carrying a heafty price tag. I'm ranting now, and almost can't stop. The art was awesome. Thanks for letting me share. I have created a secret space behind my driver license in my wallet now for the "4E" saving plan. I should be able to get the core books this comming june and the adventure kicker to go with it. Thanks for letting me share.

[Mulsiphix]

The main reservation I have about learning v3.5 and then soon after 4E is that I won't really have had a chance to see the rules and concepts I'm learning in action. It will all be theory. If I go to learn 4E I am likely, due to the massive volume of information presented in the PHB and DMG, to have a blurred understanding of the rules. I think my "knowledge" would probably be a 3.5/4E hybrid versus two independent rule sets. If I could keep the two apart or if the changes in 4E were black and white and I could easily compare the changes between v3.5/4E then I think I would have a better chance of differentiating the two in my mind. A lot of "IF"s in play and I am already greatly intimidated by the vast amount of knowledge I must learn to play this game as a DM.