SW Saga Edition game mechanics and D&D 4th Ed.

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

So with D&D 4th edition on its way and its fairly clear that they will be incorporating some of mechanics from Saga Edition, I thought I would start a thread to discuss any questions about Saga's mechanics and how they might relate to D&D.

So, ask away. Or discuss away.

P.S. This thread is not here to debate how bad or good 4th edition is going to be.

[rabkala]

I have heard that saga makes heroes tougher to beat and waters down force a bit for wider use. Do you feel this is true in saga or possibly a trend into 4e? Not to balkanize prospective 4th edition players, but will the changes be better for role-play or power gamers?

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

I have heard that saga makes heroes tougher to beat and waters down force a bit for wider use. Do you feel this is true in saga or possibly a trend into 4e? Not to balkanize prospective 4th edition players, but will the changes be better for role-play or power gamers?

I've never played a game system that catered to either power gamers or role-players. Even those games that are directed toward such extremes can be manipulated to either direction. I think anyone can take any game system and power game it or take any system and role play it. In addition, extremes like this depend greatly on the players and DM/GM involved so I feel you can't judge whether a RPG is biased one way or the other.

As for Saga, it has been my experience that heroes are NOT tougher to beat. I have thus far killed off one character and severely wounded the others on more than one occasion. It is true that heroes get more hit points at first levels and the defenses are going to be slightly higher. The only direct affect I have noticed is that it has extended combat rounds, especially at lower levels.

As for the Force, I feel it is more on par with what we see in the movies and the EU. In fact I don't really see it as being watered down at all. The fact that beating a Move Object check DC 30 or 35 and spending a destiny point you can move object a star destroyer doesn't seem watered down to me. I also REALLY like the fact that force powers are only usable on a per encounter basis. For the simple fact that it is fairly easy for force users to get their powers back by either rolling a natural 20 or spending a force point. This cuts down on the force user relying on the same power for every single round of combat. Unless of course the spend their resources on being able to do it multiple times per encounter.

[rabkala]

Well answered. I really wish I could find somebody in my area to play SW. I have a lot of questions. Playing the game always seems the best way to learn for me.

How does the condition track play out in the game? Do you think it would be a good import into other games (like possibly 4e D&D)? Do swift actions really help speed things up in the long run? It's been awhile since I looked through the book, does everyone or only sensitive players get force points? Maybe I am misremembering something, wasn't there some new point system like the optional point systems in D&D (action, taint, faith, etc.)?

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

Well answered. I really wish I could find somebody in my area to play SW. I have a lot of questions. Playing the game always seems the best way to learn for me.

How does the condition track play out in the game? Do you think it would be a good import into other games (like possibly 4e D&D)? Do swift actions really help speed things up in the long run? It's been awhile since I looked through the book, does everyone or only sensitive players get force points? Maybe I am misremembering something, wasn't there some new point system like the optional point systems in D&D (action, taint, faith, etc.)?

I agree 100% that playing a game is the best way to learn it. With that said I'll answer your questions.

The condition track is awesome! It seemed at first glance that it would be too difficult to integrate but since using it the only problem we have encountered is actually remembering to use it! I think it would be an excellent import into other games. I remember the condition track thing they had in Cyberpunk and that was fairly complicated. This one is simple because of the static penalties that apply at different steps on the condition track.

I wouldn't say swift actions help speed up the game but they don't slow it down either. I see the addition of swift actions as sort of a replacement for iterative attacks. So players don't feel totally hosed in combat now that they only get one attack every round and they get a swift action to do other things. If anything it opens up the possibilities for things that you can do in combat. Since there are feats and talents and powers that allow you to spend 2 swift actions or 3 swift actions or 1 swift action, or a swift action and a move action or a swift action and a standard action. The combinations are many. I think its a great addition and will be great for D&D IF iterative attacks are removed.

Everyone gains Force points. They are like action points in D20 Modern or Eberron. You get 5 + half your level. You can boost that to 6 or 7 + half your level by taking a PrC. And there is a feat for Force Sensitives called Force Boon that gives you an additional 3 FPs whenever you level. Since Force Sensitives tend to burn through them quicker than non-sensitives.

As far as I know there isn't a new point system introduced yet. You might be thinking of the Force Power suites. If you are Force Sensitive you can take the Force Training feat which gives you 1 + your Wis mod in Force Powers to choose from. Those selected powers are called your suite. You can use your powers at any time but they are only usable once per encounter unless you select the power more than once then you can use it more than once per encounter. You get your powers back after resting for 1 minute or if in combat you can spend a FP to get a power back or if you roll a natural 20 when using the skill Use the Force you get a power back. I think this is the best way to handle Force Powers that I have seen in any RPG yet. What happened in the RCR is you would have a Force User spend all their skill points on a couple of Force Skills to get the skill modifier as high as possible and then they would rely on those few powers for every encounter. In Saga you can still do the same thing but you are going to be spending more of your character resources on doing so. You are either going to select the power multiple times limiting the other Force powers you can use (which is unwise because there are some great powers) or you are going to be burning through FPs to get your power back. This somewhat forces Jedi (and Sith or dark siders for that matter) to rely on their lightsaber skills to deal with combat more than their powers, which is what we see more of in the movies. Aside from the Sidious vs. Yoda fight most force user fights are 90% lightsaber fights and 10% force use.

More questions! Bring it on!

[Farcaster]

This article gave me much pause, and is what makes me thing that in an effort to streamline the system, they are making it more complicated. Does Star Wars Saga Edition have this same degree of "triggered" actions, for lack of a better term?

And this... this sounds... a little to MMPOG to me:

Finally, the cleric is up. Calling on the power of her god, she swings her halberd at the dragon—a critical hit! The damage isn’t bad, but even better, the wizard gets a nice surge of healing power.

How does that play out in Saga?

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

This article gave me much pause, and is what makes me thing that in an effort to streamline the system, they are making it more complicated. Does Star Wars Saga Edition have this same degree of "triggered" actions, for lack of a better term?

And this... this sounds... a little to MMPOG to me:



How does that play out in Saga?

I haven't seen any sort of triggered actions in Saga as of yet. Yeah, that stuff is totally weird. But its really no different from a class ability or a feat that allows you to do similar stuff.

There are a few things that I can't think of off the top of my head, but I am sure there are things in 3.5 that when x happens y happens. It seems that they have made it more a part of the game instead of an option.

It does seem to appear that they are moving in a more combat oriented direction with 4th Ed, I wouldn't necessarily say MMORPG though. It fits Star Wars but not really D&D.

I don't know. Its hard to say yet. I'll have to play it to make a decision. Like I said before, even if it is very much combat focused its still whatever the DM and players make of it. You can still get TONS of ROLE playing out of a combat focused RPG. Unless you are playing in a combat focused CAMPAIGN. There in lies the difference.

[Belkar]

even if it is very much combat focused its still whatever the DM and players make of it. You can still get TONS of ROLE playing out of a combat focused RPG. Unless you are playing in a combat focused CAMPAIGN. There in lies the difference.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I'm GM'ing two different SW: Saga campaigns right now, and from a mechanics standpoint, the changes made don't differentiate it from prior d20 versions - in terms of how the system is "focused". It caters to RPers and HackNSlashers equally - it's all in how you play.

There aren't any "triggered actions" that I can recall...

As for potential 4th edition crossovers that I'd like to see:

I think the skill system is the single greatest improvment. It's simplified, easy to level, and makes multiclassing munchkinism less of a pain. Multiclassing is encouraged (on multiple levels), but it no longer creates disgustingly imbalanced characters. The skill system is the major reason for this, I think.

Grappling is, IMO, far better and easier (though I've gamed with ppl that hate the new rules, as you pretty much have to have a feat to grapple or trip somebody).

The defense system is nice. It simplifies the mechanics, and either puts the rolling power back in the player's hands (yeah, this force power [or spell ;-)] doesn't have a static DC. Roll against the defense, Mr. Jedi!), or makes gameplay faster by preventing opposed rolls. Don't think it would work in its current state with armor. Armor is too integral in D&D.

Erasure of skill bonuses in favor of re-rolls. Really like this mechanic.

Just some thoughts...