Has anyone else played any of the following?

[Morcant]

Well, there are weaknesses in Marvel's system.

An example: if you have two combatants, both with a Fighting of Incredible (40), a Strength of Incredible (30) and both have Incredible (40) Body Armor, there's no way they can damage each other with direct blows, no matter how high the attack roll is, because you need the damage to be at least the same as the Body Armor. They would have to resort to using scenery around them, or using charging combat.

In DC Heroes, if you have two combatants with a Dexterity of 10, Strength of 7, a Body of 5 and Skin Armor of 5, a roll of 11 would not deal any damage, but a roll of 13 or more would result in at least 2 RAPs of damage. Even higher results could theoretically result in a knockout blow.

[Webhead]

Of all the supers RPGs I've played/GMed thus far, I think M&M comes the closest to being the right combination of options, speed and playability. It's also a game where high levels of mechanical detail are possible but not necessary. You can spend 10 minutes making a character or 2 hours and you'll end up with something just as viable and fun to play.

On the subject of "have you played...?", I've been looking more closely into BASH: Ultimate Edition since its recent release. Has anyone played BASH before in any edition? What were your impressions? What were its strengths/weaknesses?

Ideally, I want a supers RPG that is quick and easy for newbies to jump into and whip up a character but which has enough customization and "four-color, rock 'em-sock 'em" feel to be considered an full-blooded supers game. Any idea if BASH manages this?

[Marvel Master]

Well, there are weaknesses in Marvel's system.

An example: if you have two combatants, both with a Fighting of Incredible (40), a Strength of Incredible (30) and both have Incredible (40) Body Armor, there's no way they can damage each other with direct blows, no matter how high the attack roll is, because you need the damage to be at least the same as the Body Armor. They would have to resort to using scenery around them, or using charging combat.

Ladies and gentlemen, school is now in session.

There are a lot of different things that can happen in a scenario like this which makes your representation fallacious.

First and foremost, a GM would be responsible for balancing things out so this scenario is extremely unlikely if the GM is even mediocre.

Second, Incredible is never 30. That's Remarkable. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that's a typo.

But let's say that this was the situation. I can list five things that throw a little salt in this scenario:

1. The surroundings which you mentioned before (not counting this as mine of course).

2. Whether they had more than just brute strength. Other powers to consider which they almost always do.

3. If one of them pulls off a Power Stunt that instantly switches the balance of the fight.

4. If a power weakness is suddenly revealed.

5. If they have Martial Arts A or D.

6. If one actually talks his assailant out of fighting.

DC's system has some interesting concepts and can be a fun game to play, but again, too many charts to consult to do a simple action. One chart is cool. Two for EVERYTHING is silly to me.

Someone also gave the example of Pa Kent rolling lucky enough to damage Doomsday. We know the likelihood of that is rather low (and according to the story, it happened) BUT he could probably give Batman a run for his money which is, again, silly.

In Marvel, if it's more than one rank, it's impossible. This prevents Aunt May from lifting cars on a Red FEAT and keeps some semblance of reality in the game.

Ultimately, whatever system you use, make sure it goes with your storytelling style. If the story is wack, I don't care what system you're using. The game session is going to be wack, the campaign is going to be wack (if it ever gets going), and people will blame the system instead of the GM who is actually the culprit.

[Webhead]

...Someone also gave the example of Pa Kent rolling lucky enough to damage Doomsday. We know the likelihood of that is rather low (and according to the story, it happened) BUT he could probably give Batman a run for his money which is, again, silly...

I'm also fond of the D&D example of the 1st-level Rogue assassin attempting to kill the 5th-level Fighter in his sleep:

Let's be generous to the Rogue and assume that the Fighter only has a Constitution of 12 (+1 bonus) and textbook average Hit Points of 37, while the Rogue has a Strength of 12 (+1 bonus) and successfully sneaks up on the Fighter while he slumbers. He wants to quickly and quietly slit his throat with a dagger (1d4 damage), the weapon of choice when it comes to assassination, and, thanks to the Fighter being in a "Helpless" state, he gets an automatic critical thanks to "Coup de Grace" and gets to add his Sneak Attack bonus (+1d6 damage) on top of that. Rolling straight average damage, the Rogue inflicts 10 points (not even a third of the Fighter's total hits). This prompts a DC 20 Fortitude "save or die" which the Fighter has a 30% chance of succeeding. If the save succeeds, surprise is now lost and the Rogue has to resort to going toe-to-toe with the Fighter to finish him off.

But for the sake of experimentation, let's say that the first stab doesn't wake the Fighter and that the Rogue can slice his neck again in the following rounds. Each round, he does 10 more points of average damage and prompts the same DC 20 Fort save. Assuming successful saves, the Rogue would have to stab the Fighter in the throat, by surprise, 5 times to actually kill him (or 4 times and hope that he bleeds out).

Only if the Rogue rolled max damage on his first attack (a 1% chance) would he guarantee a one-hit kill, thanks to increasing the save DC beyond the Fighter's capability.

It might be a slightly odd-ball scenario, but it just helps to demonstrate that game mechanics and logic don't always play on the same field. Don't be afraid to make your own judgement calls once in a while, instead of letting the rules do it for you.

[Morcant]

Ladies and gentlemen, school is now in session.

Let's get it on!

There are a lot of different things that can happen in a scenario like this which makes your representation fallacious.

My scenario involves two combatants just using their fists. Nothing more.

First and foremost, a GM would be responsible for balancing things out so this scenario is extremely unlikely if the GM is even mediocre.

Second, Incredible is never 30. That's Remarkable. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that's a typo.

Yes, it was a typo.

But let's say that this was the situation. I can list five things that throw a little salt in this scenario:

1. The surroundings which you mentioned before (not counting this as mine of course).

2. Whether they had more than just brute strength. Other powers to consider which they almost always do.

3. If one of them pulls off a Power Stunt that instantly switches the balance of the fight.

4. If a power weakness is suddenly revealed.

5. If they have Martial Arts A or D.

6. If one actually talks his assailant out of fighting.

Those are all valid, but I gave a specific scenario, and unless the combatants had anything you mentioned, it's impossible that either would receive any damage in the fight.

DC's system has some interesting concepts and can be a fun game to play, but again, too many charts to consult to do a simple action. One chart is cool. Two for EVERYTHING is silly to me.

I think you are overstating this. The fact is, both games require charts, period. If you have to consult one chart already, I don't see the big deal with two. If you spend enough time with either game, you don't even need to look at the chart(s) continuously, especially if dealing with the same combatants.

Someone also gave the example of Pa Kent rolling lucky enough to damage Doomsday. We know the likelihood of that is rather low (and according to the story, it happened) BUT he could probably give Batman a run for his money which is, again, silly.

Aunt May knocking out Spider-Man with one punch is silly too, but it could happen.

In Marvel, if it's more than one rank, it's impossible. This prevents Aunt May from lifting cars on a Red FEAT and keeps some semblance of reality in the game.

DC has genre rules for limiting pushing actions, so you can avoid the "feeble old man lifting the car" scenario.

Ultimately, whatever system you use, make sure it goes with your storytelling style. If the story is wack, I don't care what system you're using. The game session is going to be wack, the campaign is going to be wack (if it ever gets going), and people will blame the system instead of the GM who is actually the culprit.

Use the system you like.

[BASHMAN]

Of all the supers RPGs I've played/GMed thus far, I think M&M comes the closest to being the right combination of options, speed and playability. It's also a game where high levels of mechanical detail are possible but not necessary. You can spend 10 minutes making a character or 2 hours and you'll end up with something just as viable and fun to play.

On the subject of "have you played...?", I've been looking more closely into BASH: Ultimate Edition since its recent release. Has anyone played BASH before in any edition? What were your impressions? What were its strengths/weaknesses?

Ideally, I want a supers RPG that is quick and easy for newbies to jump into and whip up a character but which has enough customization and "four-color, rock 'em-sock 'em" feel to be considered an full-blooded supers game. Any idea if BASH manages this?

I can say that it sounds like you were DESCRIBING it- but of course I am biased to like it, since that's what I designed it to do. In the meantime, I am happy to answer any questions you have about it.

You may also find the preview, podcasts, and reviews helpful here.

[Dr.Dead]

I have never played any of those games before

[AslanC]

I would like to give my thumbs up to BASH! as well. It has just enough M&M/Champions style crunchiness with a fast play almost freeform approached like the old FASERIP Marvel

[Webhead]

I would like to give my thumbs up to BASH! as well. It has just enough M&M/Champions style crunchiness with a fast play almost freeform approached like the old FASERIP Marvel

Hmmm...consider my interest piqued!

[AslanC]

You can follow my blog as I am currently doing a Bronze Age (set in 1984) campaign using BASH! and putting up NPCs and various thoughts on the system there.

Or ask questions and either I or for sure Bashman can answer them, he wrote the darn thing after all

[Dr.Volt]

I just got BASH UE myself. Great game!! Btw, I think the link to your blog is not working.

Thanks for promoting a great game!

[AslanC]

Old link

Here is the new link

[Starphoenix26]

With the near limitless combinations of powers and quirks, why would you ever want to limit yourself to something that has 40 years of history already. In my campaigns I enforce a strict policy of no knock-offs. The fact that people have some weird desire to play pre-made characters is what is going to sink the Marvel/DC MMORPG's coming out.

Absolutely NOT true.
you can create original concepts and still be a viable part of an established campaign. my groups done it for 27 years now. it'sd a matter of the creativity within your group's players.

---------- Post added at 01:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 PM ----------

Well, there are weaknesses in Marvel's system.

An example: if you have two combatants, both with a Fighting of Incredible (40), a Strength of Incredible (30) and both have Incredible (40) Body Armor, there's no way they can damage each other with direct blows, no matter how high the attack roll is, because you need the damage to be at least the same as the Body Armor. They would have to resort to using scenery around them, or using charging combat.

In DC Heroes, if you have two combatants with a Dexterity of 10, Strength of 7, a Body of 5 and Skin Armor of 5, a roll of 11 would not deal any damage, but a roll of 13 or more would result in at least 2 RAPs of damage. Even higher results could theoretically result in a knockout blow.

But in your example you could incur knockback or stun. and that's the point: sometimes you have to use other options than direct force to incur damage or knock an opponent out.

[froglegg]

I loved Marvel Super Heroes!

John

---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 PM ----------

Ladies and gentlemen, school is now in session.

There are a lot of different things that can happen in a scenario like this which makes your representation fallacious.

First and foremost, a GM would be responsible for balancing things out so this scenario is extremely unlikely if the GM is even mediocre.

Second, Incredible is never 30. That's Remarkable. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that's a typo.

But let's say that this was the situation. I can list five things that throw a little salt in this scenario:

1. The surroundings which you mentioned before (not counting this as mine of course).

2. Whether they had more than just brute strength. Other powers to consider which they almost always do.

3. If one of them pulls off a Power Stunt that instantly switches the balance of the fight.

4. If a power weakness is suddenly revealed.

5. If they have Martial Arts A or D.

6. If one actually talks his assailant out of fighting.

DC's system has some interesting concepts and can be a fun game to play, but again, too many charts to consult to do a simple action. One chart is cool. Two for EVERYTHING is silly to me.

Someone also gave the example of Pa Kent rolling lucky enough to damage Doomsday. We know the likelihood of that is rather low (and according to the story, it happened) BUT he could probably give Batman a run for his money which is, again, silly.

In Marvel, if it's more than one rank, it's impossible. This prevents Aunt May from lifting cars on a Red FEAT and keeps some semblance of reality in the game.

Ultimately, whatever system you use, make sure it goes with your storytelling style. If the story is wack, I don't care what system you're using. The game session is going to be wack, the campaign is going to be wack (if it ever gets going), and people will blame the system instead of the GM who is actually the culprit.

Ouch!
You rock MM!

[Maxxx]

With the near limitless combinations of powers and quirks, why would you ever want to limit yourself to something that has 40 years of history already. In my campaigns I enforce a strict policy of no knock-offs. The fact that people have some weird desire to play pre-made characters is what is going to sink the Marvel/DC MMORPG's coming out.

Couldnt disagree more!