Reply With QuoteCool... what kind of challenge would you give me if I had an anti-paladin?
As a DM I usually throw in challenges during the game where the Paladin or Priest doesn't know its a challenge.
Paladin Blues
I feel a DM needs to challenge a Paladin to stick to his code. Some Paladins feel I'm a little sadistic about this. But, I think, a lot of paladins don't chose the class for its role play value but, instead, for its munchkin factor. so here's how I do it. Do you guys think I go to far? Also, how do you do it? If you have a certain method.
One of my favorite tactics is to give or loan a Paladin a Holy Avenger. Send him on a time sensitive mission and then before the party even arrives at mission site throw in an encounter to challenge the Paladins code.
Usually goes something like this. As you ride into town you hear a woman scream in horror. "My child, somebody save my baby." The Paladin charges over to find a young boy wrestling with a Kobold. Unknown to the party and the town the kobold is a deviant from his society and is actually LG. The boy and the Kobold are actually friends playing as boys will. Since a single Kobold is a CR 1/4 a Paladin with a Holy avenger is more or less guaranteed to cut him down, if he wants to. Now if the Paladin takes even a moment to asses the situation I give enough clues to reveal the truth and he gains a loyal follower to help him in his quest. If not hello mister ex-paladin. I always give the opportunity for an atonement but they are not easy.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Banned
Cool... what kind of challenge would you give me if I had an anti-paladin?
As a DM I usually throw in challenges during the game where the Paladin or Priest doesn't know its a challenge.
Last edited by Ed Zachary; Tuesday 07-10-2007 at 11:27 AM.
I usually play good aligned groups, so I never thought of what to do for an anti-paladin. Most of my challenges are not what they seem on the outside. My above example illustrates this I think. The obvious answer, killing the Kobold, is very much the wrong answer. With an evil aligned character I would probably force them to save a force for good to further an evil end. Thus putting them at odds with their own code of not working wit a good being.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Member
I'm curious, do you have a specific Code of Conduct written out that they must follow or is it simply a "you must do Lawful-Good things and I'll decide whether you succeeded or you're screwed" kind of situation?
Too me, what you've posted does look like you're out to get the player rather than create an interesting story for the character, and frankly, you seem kinda keen on setting the player up to fall based primarily on rules-lawyering their character into a fall from grace.
Maybe I'm wrong. That's just the way your post looks to me.
Administrator
The thin line that a paladin must walk is an extremely difficult one not just from the character's perspective, but from the player's as well. A wizard may have to spend years in demeaning apprenticeships and may need to constantly study to hone his skills, but only the player only reaps the rewards without anything personally sacrificed. In 1st and 2nd edition, the disparity between the other classes and the Paladin was even more evident, when the Paladin could only keep a limited amount of magic items and had to donate large portions of his personal wealth back to the church.
Pile onto that the skewed perspective that many DMs take of the Paladin code. I personally played in a 2nd edition AD&D game where within the first two hours of play, I had lost my paladinhood. Why? Because I didn't run headlong into an impossible to win fight against not just overwhelming, but impossible odds. But the DM had it in his mind that a young paladin should sacrifice himself without question or thought. If every paladin was so narrow minded that they would lay down their life to save any and every hapless peasant in needed, then I submit to you that the world would quickly be depleted of all of all who would take up such a mantle. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there aren't circumstances that a Paladin must take a stand and be willing to sacrifice everything even for the life of but one lowly serf, but at the same time, the Paladin must also keep in mind the larger picture. He can't save everyone. Its just not feasible.
The thin line itself is a difficult one to walk, and most of the time, I just make sure that my paladin-player is just keeping to his edicts. Occasionally, I do throw a particularly challenging scenario at the paladins in my games. Usually, it boils down to a moral dilemma that may have no clear answer. For instance, recently, my players had to sneak into the City of Dis on the second layer of Hell under the guise of an illusion that made them appear to be tieflings. The group was on an important mission to gather information and intelligence. They were warned that they might witness acts of great evil happening there -- it is Hell after all, but they must maintain a low profile. This was a challenge to the entire group, but it was most challenging for the Paladin, of course.
While in Hell, the group was faced with a situation in which an innocent had been captured and was being used as the personal punching-bag --and worse-- of a powerful devil. The paladin played this very well, trying to buy the innocent's freedom, under the pretense of ill intent, but when the Devil was not swayed, the paladin and the group attempted to waylay the Devil and take the innocent by force. In the first few seconds of the fight, the Devil was pressed into laying down a fireball directly on his aggressors, which also engulfed the elven maiden the group was trying to save and killed her instantly. Ultimately, the group was forced to flee and almost cost themselves the mission.
Afterwards, my player was very upset by what he felt was an unwinnable situation for his paladin. In a way, he was right. He couldn't save the girl. It just wasn't in the cards. The challenge in this case was to behave according to his code and do what was right, even if doing what was right was excruciatingly hard. And, in truth, I think the paladin acted exactly right in this situation until he decided to risk the greater mission by attacking the devil to try to save this one, albeit pitiable, innocent.
Wew! So, to make a short-story long, I try to keep these kinds of challenges sparse, because it can be extremely trying on both the player who is running the paladin and the rest of the group. But, when I do dole them out, they are usually doozies.
Banned
I like the old WW Vampire system with the various Paths of Enlightenment.
I liked to play the various Paths (Inner Voice, Death, Scorched Heart) rather than boring Humanity, and I always worked to increasing my path rating and virtues. I wonder how the Path of Humanity would work with a D&D Paladin... any thoughts?
Member
Although I don't know a lot about WW's enlightenment paths, I doubt strongly that a philosophy of humanism in general would work for an order of holy knights. Those two things seem at odds to me.Originally Posted by Ed Zachary
Banned
Path of Humanity / Hierarchy of Sins
10: Selfish Thoughts
9: Minor selfish acts
8: Injury to another (accidental or otherwise)
7: Theft
6: Accidental violation (drinking a vessel dry)
5: Intentional property damage
4: Impassioned violation (manslaughter)
3: Planned Violation (outright murder)
2: Casual violation (thoughtless killing)
1: Utter perversion or heinous acts
A possibility would be to take the WW system and make a Paladin live up to a Ten. For each transgression the Paladin could lose (11-rating) temporary Charisma points. They could be regained by "Deeds of Atonement", however the DM sets them.
I've never played a Paladin, its requirements are to rigid for me to enjoy the game.
Paladins are "Lawful" and "Good" so I suggest to take advantage of the "Law" to challange your Paladin.
The Paladins Deity Power may relay to much in the Power and Unity of its church, which can be corrupted by Rich Villains or Merchants. Some Deities like Helm are Lawful Neutral which allow for Lawful Evil Cardinals which are in very good standing with their God.
Paladins are not necessarly "Nobles", and their "Class" doesn't mean "Knighthood", that means Lawful Evil Nobles, Guard Captains and even Kings will make the Paladin's Life very dificult, specially when they are in good standing with the common population.
Like Today, there may be popular "Pop Bard Stars" which will be adored by millions for their beautiful performances, but may be saadistic with their lovers.
I suppose presenting the Paladin with situations where they can not destroy the evil guy right away, the world is not black and white, put them in gray scenarios.
Saluti
Carlos
Member
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Last edited by PhishStyx; Wednesday 07-11-2007 at 12:37 AM.
Banned
Sorry, I've only been playing since 1980. Do you have a better system in mind?
Even if the Paladin killed the Kobold in the system I worked out with about 30 seconds of thought, he could recover through atonement actions (5 points worth). These actions could lead to scenarios centered on the Paladin but involving the other characters. The Paladin's reputation would suffer because of the incident, and Charisma (likability) is the most obvious ability to take the hit.
And if you'd do what you said to the Paladin, it would make that character unplayable. That would be a real screw-job by the DM. Sorry, but this isn't real life, it's a game with a limited options to describe things. So a "mechanical solution to a problem" is needed. The game has character sheets with mechanics on it to help describe characters.
"Taking his mechanically donated horse or sword or attribute points away"
Jeebus, in the game of D&D, how else do characters acquire things? We role play based on what is on our character sheet, it's not a feel good free for all where we imagine whatever we want our character to be or have.
Member
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Last edited by PhishStyx; Wednesday 07-11-2007 at 12:36 AM.
Banned
I'm stepping back from this discussion, nothing good can come from it.
Member
never mind, discuss away.
I think Ed's got a good idea. There are thousands of frothing flame wars on the internet just on the subject of the paladin code. And I know from my own experience as a DM and player, that nothing good can come of this.
Move along, nothing to see here, move along.
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