Generating Attributes (And There Was Much Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth)

[Farcaster]

My players have always been a bit reticent (to put it mildly) about using the point buy system in D&D. In fact, I've resisted it myself in the past, which is interesting because the idea of rolling statistics seems to be an antiquated method of character generation in modern gaming. I didn't think about it twice when using the character points systems in WoD or GURPS. Why then, other than nestalgia, should D&D be any different?

Perhaps it is the idea of gambling with (and beating) the system that seems so attractive. If I'm lucky enough, with one set of rolls, I can pave the way to having an awesome character for the rest of the campaign -- perhaps even better than the other players? Does it boil down to a subtle form of status? There are the attribute-haves and have-nots? The idea of having a better character than everyone else is definitely prevalent in MMPOGs, and certainly isn't unheard of in table-top gaming either.

But, should I roll poorly and be forced to *gasp* roleplay a less than stellar character, a character with actual flaws, you’d think the world had come to an end. For low and beyond, there shall be much weeping and gnashing of teeth. Of course, how many of us don't imagine our character as being center-stage? How many actually want to play the comedic relief, bumbling his way along in the story even if such a character has the most opportunity to triumph?

Should a set of dice rolls made in a couple of minutes have such an enormous impact on a character I may well be playing for years to come? I certainly don't believe that a low-stat character is a loss, but should a random dice roll determine for me what my roleplaying opportunities are going to be? The more I think about it, the more I think that using the point buy system just makes much more sense. If I want to play a laggard who has to sweat to add two and two, then I can choose to build him that way instead of letting chance suck the creativity out of the process. And, if I’m a player who cannot abide by a single negative adjustment next to one of my attributes, then the point buy can satisfy me too… Perhaps the only thing that just can’t be satisfied using this system is the sometimes subtle urge to be envied.

What do you think? What system do you use in your games? The standard 4d6, keep the highest three? A point buy? Something else? Do tell. I'm interested.

[starfalconkd]

I generally use 4d6 drop the lowest. I sometimes allowed players to roll two sets through this method and choose which set they like, but not often.

[Ed Zachary]

I don't like the randomization method, because some people always seem to roll extremely well in character generation. That and the bell curve tends to lump most scores in the middle. The point buy-in system levels the playing field, but I prefer giving each players the following set of numbers to start with and to assign as they want:

18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 08

The "4d6 drop the lowest" method will give an average score of 12.2, the above set gives an average of 13.0 and is equal to a 38 point buy-in. The problem with buy-ins is that they make having higher ability scores very prohibitive, and too easy to remove low scores. I like the characters to have some high and some low scores. Adventurers should be the best of the best, but still have some flaws.

For example I recently joined a group with a 32 point buy-in. I gave the character five six-point boosts and a two point boost in Charisma. If you select a race with some good ability increases, you get a character with awesome scores and no real weaknesses.

[Moritz]

4d6 drop the lowest. Assign them in any order and you're able to move 1 point from one attribute to another if you so wish. Further, if you do not like your results, you can re-roll the entire group.

I'm really nice.

[ronpyatt]

I don't really care for the dice method. It seems cheap and easy to outbalance other characters in the party. I like idea of the point buy, but as Ed mentioned, characters are prevented from having those awesome scores that make a great hero. Random numbers do not usually produce a fair and balanced party. If I don't like the way my character is turning out, then I'll just keep rerolling another character until I'm satisfied.

I've played characters with the straight-up 3d6 method, the 4d6 drop 1, the point buy, and so far I hate them all. I end up not being able to get a particular feat or something else prohibited to the development of the character.

My method is restricted to what the GM requests if it's point buy, but if it's a dice roll that is required then I'll just pick my numbers without rolling. This set seems to be the best combination for keeping me and the GM happy: 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 12. It's the Count Down method, and if I need to tweak it a little more then I'll allow myself to move one point over from one ability score to the other or even drop a point to make it look random. Since I like to play Half-orc sorcerers or psions, my numbers end up looking like 16, 15, 16, 15, 14, 14.

[Skunkape]

I use point buy, but it's really my point buy system, not DnDs. I would rather give the players a lower number of points and just allow characteristic buys as a 1 point for 1 point version of the buy system. I know higher stats are supposed to be better, but I don't agree that you have to spend more points as you get your stats higher. That just increases the amount of complexity. Just have each increase cost 1 point per and give the players fewer points to purchase their stats.

I really do agree that dice rolling is a fairly bad thing as how lucky/unlucky someone is can either make or break the game for them. The set values for stats, like the expert array or standard array is also a good way to generate characters!

[Moritz]

I liked the point buy system in NWN, but most of the RL players I know, hated it. Guess they wanted the chance to re-roll for 300 times to get that straight 18 set.

[Ed Zachary]

I use point buy, but it's really my point buy system, not DnDs. I would rather give the players a lower number of points and just allow characteristic buys as a 1 point for 1 point version of the buy system. I know higher stats are supposed to be better, but I don't agree that you have to spend more points as you get your stats higher. That just increases the amount of complexity. Just have each increase cost 1 point per and give the players fewer points to purchase their stats.

I believe that the PCs should represent the best of the best, and have a few good stats. But I am also a stickler about giving them weaknesses, and having them build the character's personality on how they deal with that weakness.

That's why I stick them with one 08 score. Nobody is going to pick a race that gives a stat bonus, and put that bonus to turn the 08 into a 10.

My best character has an 06 for a strength, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I really do agree that dice rolling is a fairly bad thing as how lucky/unlucky someone is can either make or break the game for them. The set values for stats, like the expert array or standard array is also a good way to generate characters!

Beware the player who wants to bring in his great character with stats pre-rolled at home.

Has anyone ever brought in a "great character" with mediocre or poor pre-rolled stats?

Has anyone ever seen an established character with less than average Hit Points?

[Ed Zachary]

Speaking of players cheating with Hip Point rolls... As a DM, a player brought in a Thief character with HP so high, that even if he rolled all 6s on his d6 his score would've been lower. Just as I've established stats (18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 08) for abilities, I've also taken the dice rolling out of HP too.
d4=3
d6=4
d8=5
d10=6
d12=7

I like the randomization that dice rolling gives during game play, but not for the permanent attributes that stay with a character. It's too easy to fudge, and nobody ever rolls below average.

You (anyone) don't have to comment on this, but look at the HP of your main characters. Do any of them have below average dice rolls?

[Moritz]

I allow them max hit points up to level 5, then they have to roll.

[Ed Zachary]

I allow them max hit points up to level 5, then they have to roll.

A friend of mine had a dwarf fighter (Sir Beerslayer), and he had an 18 Con. I personally saw him roll his first two 10s for HP. After that we all watched him on further HP rolls. Not because we thought he was cheating, but out of interest. He rolled 10s at 3rd and 4th levels too, but no more afterward.

We had another player, let's call him "Sleaze" (I wasn't the DM). He always rolled his d20s into a wall he made with his cupped hand. And yes, he always made all his saves, and always hit when he had to. Later on we made a rule... "no sleaze rolling allowed". all dice had to be thrown into the middle of the table. Most of the time nobody checked, but it was a good move to keep things fair.

[starfalconkd]

I like to let my pcs have high hps. I generally allow someone the option to reroll the die, but they are stuck with the second result. I'd rather my pcs have above average hp.

[Ed Zachary]

As a shameless self-promo, check out the game thread that was just started in the Play by Post folder.

[Skunkape]

I had a Traveler character that had almost max stats, and I rolled the dice right infront of the GM. He wasn't very happy about the results, but I've also had players who cheated on dice rolls. I'm not talking the occasional fudge, I'm talking making all of the required rolls all of the time.

I trust everyone in my current group, they've been honest so far and we've been playing together constantly for the past 3+ years.

As far as HPs are concerned, I let the PCs roll their hits if they want to. I track characters using DM Genie, and one of the PCs always had me let the program roll his hit points instead of rolling them himself. For the most part, the PCs usually had average rolls for hits.

One of the games I'm playing in, the GM had us roll 3 characters using the 4d6 drop the lowest and take the one we liked best. Although I haven't looked at everyone's characters, from what I've gathered through watching, we all have one maybe two high stats, 16 -18, two to three average stats and two lower stats, a few of us having 8s. So I don't think anyone cheated when generating their characters.

The way the GM has us roll stats is you roll the die, if you don't like the result, you can let the GM roll for you, but you take whatever he rolls. I had gotten a little below average hits on my character, we're just hit 6th level, and let the GM re-roll two of my rolls, his rolls were higher than mine, so my hits went up. I've also seen with other players lower rolls from the GM, even a 2 on a d10 getting replaced by a 1, but for the most part, our characters are just a little above average.

[NikoONeil]

Most of the games I have ran have been newbie ones. As such, I wanted the characters to be powerful so they could be sure and survive. I let them roll 6d6 add 12 to each and that is their stats. As for the method I like the best it is a modified point buy. I give them a total of +8 on their modifiers before racial adjustments. This seems to work well and generally gives ballanced but diverse characters.