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Thread: Need DM's to weigh in on 3.5 Bullrush

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    Need DM's to weigh in on 3.5 Bullrush

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    Greetings gamers. This thread involves bullrush in 3.5. My DM and I are in disagreement as to how it plays out.
    He says I can do a bullrush but can't move after, also requiring a touch attack with relevant miss chance. The move action is only for item swaps and such. I did not yet try to move before one so I don't know where he stands on that. He says that since you move before the bullrush(entering the square) and then possibly during the bullrush if you win then it would behave as spring attack if you were to move after with your remaining move action.


    I say that it clearly states that a bullrush is a standard action even though it is called an attack. In resolving a bullrush no attack type is listed. You cannot do it as part of a full attack action. If you didn't move you couldn't do a bullrush and it inherently does no damage and cannot trigger cleave or even be part of a spring attack. The point of a bullrush is to manipulate the battlefield and if you cannot move to exploit the breach why not just attack or overrun? Also you can do it as part of a charge so you can exceed your single movement speed but you can only reach your maximum move even if you bullrush with a high win over the opponents strength roll. That would also be moving, attacking and moving. Also if you fail your bullrush you still moved into and out of the square so you forgo your full attack to let the enemy hammer if you cannot move away so this doesn't make sense. The whole reason I'm very interested is because I am also using the dungeon crasher alternate route. If I turn one guy into paste on a wall and then get surrounded that is a tactically stupid move by most standards.


    This entry is from the 3.5 pdf but not the erratad one but the entries seem the same.


    BULL RUSH
    You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of
    a charge (see Charge, below). When you make a bull rush, you
    attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him.
    You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger
    than you, the same size, or smaller.
    Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defenderís
    space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent
    that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the
    Improved Bull Rush feat, you donít provoke an attack of opportunity
    from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone
    other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a
    25%chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack
    of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise
    has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone
    makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then
    roll to see whether the attack went astray.)


    Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks.
    You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than
    Medium or a Ė4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than
    Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a
    +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally
    stable (such as a dwarf).


    Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defenderís Strength check
    result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender,
    you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points
    by which your check result is greater than the defenderís check
    result. You canít, however, exceed your normal movement limit.
    (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved.
    So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke
    attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)
    If you fail to beat the defenderís Strength check result, you move
    5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his
    space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.


    I'd like some experienced and even new 3.5 ed DM's to weigh in. Thanks for your time.

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    the bull rush attack is a special attack action, which has as an effect of the attack, movement. as the ability states, you are trading damage for forced movement. it is not a move action, nor a move equivalent action. there is nothing prohibiting a move action before a bull rush, or after a bull rush. the only possible point of contention between a bull-rush and a move action is the clause in bull-rush where it says you can't exceed your normal movement rate - which could be interpreted as intransitive (ie: only affecting movement within the bull rush action) or transitive (ie: affecting all movement you take that round, thus if you seriously bull rush someone, you could potentially run out of movement in a given round).

    the dm would be well within rights to interpret it either way, but to fully prohibit movement in a round where a bull rush has taken place is not what the rule says.

    Also, there is no touch attack. (is the dm thinking of grappling instead?) the attacker provokes (or not depending on feat choice), there is an opposed str check, and then adjudicate the results. period.

    generally speaking, if a dm wants to change how it works "to make more sense" then said dm needs to do so in a way that reduces complexity, or adds an amount of complexity acceptable to all group members, and notify all players of such alterations before the game / campaign even starts - as it will affect character choices. imposing sudden limitations on character concepts, especially those previously approved is simple bad form. a dm is not the absolute authority of a group (only over characters inside the context of the game), and must get approval from an entire group before making any such rules changes.

    by making these last points, i do not seek to state or imply that you dm is actually doing any of it. but it is an important concept to keep in mind for all dms, so i state what might be considered obvious to many, just in case it is relevant and/or useful.
    Last edited by nijineko; 09-16-2013 at 02:06 PM.
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    Hello Elementalsigil!

    I agree with Nijineko in that as a standard action (or part of a charge http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Bull_Rush) you could bullrush and then move after.

    The touch attack/no touch attack thing can be confusing, your DM probably got confused. D&D works mostly because there is an intelligent DM to change rules as needed, and if there is a reason he has to change Bullrush, he should make a house rule and inform you crew about it. I had a grapple fan in a recent campaign, and I kept the quick rules for grapple pinned to my DM screen for easy reference.

    If you wanna really cause your DM to tear out hair, show him this http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a, and remark Since "You can use any special attack that you can use as a melee attack as an attack of opportunity.", I should be able to Bullrush as an AOO too!

    -Will-
    Last edited by TorteStone; 09-20-2013 at 05:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TorteStone View Post
    Hello Elementalsigil!

    I agree with Nijineko in that as a standard action (or part of a charge http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Bull_Rush) you could bullrush and then move after.

    The touch attack/no touch attack thing can be confusing, your DM probably got confused. D&D works mostly because there is an intelligent DM to change rules as needed, and if there is a reason he has to change Bullrush, he should make a house rule and inform you crew about it. I had a grapple fan in a recent campaign, and I kept the quick rules for grapple pinned to my DM screen for easy reference.

    If you wanna really cause your DM to tear out hair, show him this http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a, and remark Since "You can use any special attack that you can use as a melee attack as an attack of opportunity.", I should be able to Bullrush as an AOO too!

    -Will-
    ah, note that they specify which attack actions qualify (bullrush is not listed), and also state that the special action has to be an attack, which bullrush is not, as it is a standard action. ^^ (paragraph 5 on the link listed)
    nijineko the gm: AG16, CoS. nijineko the player: AtG, RttToH; . The Journal of Tala'elowar Kiyiik! .
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    Whoa- Bullrush is a standard action but not an attack? Well, don't tell your DM that part Elementalsigil! Or you could tell him, but only after you suggest my statement above, and he turns purple with gamer rage!

    -Will-

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    Quote Originally Posted by TorteStone View Post
    Whoa- Bullrush is a standard action but not an attack? Well, don't tell your DM that part Elementalsigil! Or you could tell him, but only after you suggest my statement above, and he turns purple with gamer rage!

    -Will-

    ah, let me clarify. it is a special attack which takes a standard action to perform, not an attack action to perfom. an attack action is something that can be done during a full attack action as one of the attacks in question. an AoO is also considered an attack action, iirc.
    nijineko the gm: AG16, CoS. nijineko the player: AtG, RttToH; . The Journal of Tala'elowar Kiyiik! .
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    bullrush is pretty much cut and dry, it is explained very well in the PHB. There is no touch attack, just a standard action and a move. But there can be an attack standard action if it is part of a charge instead of a move action. I like to say that if bullrush is part of a charge you must hit your attack to get your strength check. Also, if it is used as part of a charge, the defender can set to recieve, which gives him additional bonuses, stability (+4 on his str check) and extra damage on his AoO

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    Strange things about bull rush (RAW):

    Attack bonuses aren't included. You'd think being a great fighter would help with bull rushes.

    The defender can't avoid it - only push back. So - probably really useful against high AC enemies.

    It says, if the square you get pushed back into is occupied, you go prone. Um, how did you start a bull rush from there, if the square was occupied?
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