Lycanthrope Characters

[Ed Zachary]

In the process of transferring over one of my characters from 2.0 to 3.5, I got a bit hung up on the Lycanthrope part. The transition was done in the first game I joined, but neither the DM nor I were experts in the rules. We recently had some new players join us, and some of their characters are Lycanthropes too. The Monster Manual is not very clear on some of the detail of character specifics, so I would like to ask some of the experts here what is correct.

Let's start out with the basics... assume the character is a refugee Githyanki Fighter (CN), and he was afflicted at tenth level from a Weretiger (6HD). Now the Fighter is 20th level with a Constitution of 14 (now 20 from Lycanthrope).

Hit Points: HP=20(d10+2)+6(d8+5)=220. My HP as a humanoid are from my levels and my unmodified Con. My HP as a Lycanthrope are from my animal HD and my modified Con.

Attack Bonus: It goes up by one per HD, correct? Animals and Monsters use Hit Dice plus Level on the Fighter table for attack bonus. Would my base attack bonus be (+20/+15/+10/+5, plus +6/+6/+6/+6), or (+20/+15/+10/+5, plus +6/+1/+0/+0)?

Hit Dice: Regarding hit dice; what if I was a Troglodyte that started with 2 HD, would my new HD be 2+6=8, or would it default to 6?

Saving Throws: What table do I use to figure Saving Throw bonuses from my animal HD? It looks like Fort and Reflex are Good, but not sure about Will.

Skills: With an Intel of 12, my Fighter would get (3+20)(2+1)=69 skill points. As a Lycanthrope, it would get (6)(2+1)=18 more. Do those skills come all at once, and if not how are they added?

Feats: The book says that I add my new animal HD to my Level, and select my new feats based on that. As a Fighter, do I gain 2 for normal character progression (one per 3 levels), plus 3 (one per 2 levels) for fighter class progression? I also gain the feat Iron Will. Is that in addition to the others, or must I make that one of my selections?

Spell Resistance: As a Githyanki my Spell Resistance is 5 plus my Level. Do I also add my HD to that?

Control Shape: I am an Afflicted Lycanthrope, not a Natural one. Control Shape is a Wisdom-based skill that I can use to decide which shape I want, when to change, and with a DC=20 (as far as I know). The book says jack about when I am forced to change, so all I have to go by is old movies. When is an Afflicted Lycanthrope forced to change? When is a Natural Lycanthrope forced to change (if at all)? What if the Afflicted Lycanthrope is deep underground, or on another plane when the change should occur?

Thanks to anyone who can help me with the above questions. Sometimes I think that the books were left very vague on purpose.

[Farcaster]

A 15th level fighter afflicted with lycanthropy (waretiger), would have 20 HD and effectively be a 23rd level character due to the ECL adjustment of afflicted waretiger template. That means that for the purposes of gaining experience, you need the amount required for a 24th level character to get to the next level, AND when determining experience gained, you go off the 24th level column when comparing the CR/EL.

You'd have 15d10+5d8+ (CON BONUS x 20) hit points. Only your first HD in fighter would be maximized.

As far as skills, you have 15 levels of your fighter skills as normal. You also have 5 levels where you gain 2+int modifier skill points that can be used freely in any of the lycanthropes listed skills, which are considered class skills: Balance, Climb, Handle Animal, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot. You may distribute your 5 HD of points as you choose in these, or cross-class if you like.

Your abilities are augmented by the lycanthrope template giving you: Str +12, Dex +4, Con +6

As far as your BAB, you have 5 HD of "Humanoid" which is considered to go off the base attack bonus of a cleric (3/4). So, you get +3 from your lycan levels. You now have a total of +18 base before adding your strength bonus.

For feats, you gain all of the feats listed for the waretiger: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (bite, claw). That is a net gain of 5 feats. Fighter Feats are in a category of their own, so at this level you should have 7 feats. If you already had any of these feats, mark them off this list. Add up the total number of feats gained after adjusting for feats you already had. Add in the feats you gained from normal leveling (not fighter). If this is less than 7 feats, you may choose feats normally available to any character to bring it up to 7. If it is more than 7, than the extra feats you gained are considered bonus feats, and from this point on, you still gain a feat as normal. You are not in debt.

You also gain Iron Will as a bonus feat that does not figure into that equation above.

More in a bit... Off to a meeting.

[Ed Zachary]

I understand the basics of character creation very well, it's just the Lycanthrope part that's very confusing. Four people read the same rule books, and come up with four different interpretations. WotC did a very poor job in their explanation.

As far as skills, you have 15 levels of your fighter skills as normal. You also have 5 levels where you gain 2+int modifier skill points that can be used freely in any of the lycanthropes listed skills, which are considered class skills: Balance, Climb, Handle Animal, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot. You may distribute your 5 HD of points as you choose in these, or cross-class if you like.

Don't get caught up in the details of the levels, I have that done properly. My question is... when I become a lycanthrope and gain the animal hit dice, I gain additional skills based on those HD. How that is done and what i am allowed to take is my question.

As far as your BAB, you have 5 HD of "Humanoid" which is considered to go off the base attack bonus of a cleric (3/4). So, you get +3 from your lycan levels. You now have a total of +18 base before adding your strength bonus.

That would be six HD of base animal, plus my levels as a Fighter. The six animal HD would gve me +4, so I'm guessing that I would apply that same bonus to all my attacks.

For feats, you gain all of the feats listed for the waretiger: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (bite, claw). That is a net gain of 5 feats.

What's got me confused is the first paragraph on the top of page 179 of the MM.

Thanks, Ed

[Kilrex]

HP: You keep the HD even when not in animal form. You do not get the bonus HP from the con increase until you change to animal form, but they count as temp HP and you lose them when you revert to human form.

Attack Bonus: Use the cleric att. bonus for the 6 new HD.

Hit Dice: The trog would have 8.

Saving Throws: Reflex is good.

Skills: (2+Int) times the 6 HD. They added as soon as template is. Remember when the template is added you do not know you are afflicted yet, so you can not start with skills in Control Shape yet. (MM p. 303)

Feats: You add about 2 feats due to template HD inferred. You add the HD to your level for determining how many you have. They do not have to be the ones listed on the entry for what afflicted you. Since you were afflicted at 10th lvl, you would have been equivalent to a 16th lvl char as far as how many feats you would have. (6 feats + Iron Will + class feats) But you must still meet class level requirements for any feats you chose.

Spell Resistance: Hit dice from templates do not add, just class levels. (MM p. 128)

Control Shape: You have involuntary change of shape during the full moon and whenever damaged in combat (MM p. 178). Control shape skill checks are listed on page 303. There is no real set in stone time if natural Lycans must change, but they do not have to due to combat damage.

As for being underground or on a different plane, it would be the DMs call. When I DM, I do make chars change at night, as a Lycan will change on the surface even if he can not see the moon. As for being on other planes, I would rule the change would not happen. If the lycanthropy in the game world is due to the curse of a god/goddess and not a disease, I would rule you would change regardless of location.

[Ed Zachary]

Thanks Kilrex, that's almost exactly what I had.

Regarding the Feats, I added six. Two from levels (gain one every three levels), three from Fighter class (bonus feat every other level), and Iron Will.

Do you agree on how I did the Hit Points?

I posted this same question over at the WotC board, and got different answers.

Thanks...

[Farcaster]

Sorry, the material I was looking at online was saying it was 5hd. So adjust what I said before by 1hd.

I gain additional skills based on those HD. How that is done and what i am allowed to take is my question.

Your "class skills" are: Balance, Climb, Handle Animal, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot. You have 2+int modifier in skill points for each of the 6 HD you have from the waretiger. If you user this for a skill outside of that list, it is cross-class. If you were playing this character and suddenly got afflicted, then it would be up to the GM if he was going to make you gain these levels over time, but by default you gain them instantly with your new found animal prowess.

That would be six HD of base animal, plus my levels as a Fighter. The six animal HD would gve me +4, so I'm guessing that I would apply that same bonus to all my attacks.

Correct. That +4 would apply to your base attack bonus, which affects everything else.

What's got me confused is the first paragraph on the top of page 179 of the MM.

Read my section about the feats again. That should explain it. Of if you want an example:

I'm a 10th level half-elf warrior (NPC class, no bonus feats). I have 4 feats that I chose over my career so far. They are: Alertness and Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (longsword), and Power Attack. When I become infected, I gain: Improved Improved initiative, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (bite), and Improved Natural Attack (claw). I already had 2 of those, so my net gain was 3 feats--for a total of 7 overall. I am now have 16 HD (although I am effectively a 19th lvl character). So, by the feat progression, I SHOULD have 6 feats. So, Improved Natural Attack (claw) is considered a bonus feat even though I didn't have the feat slot for it. If I had already taken Improved Initiative before though, then I'd be one feat short and could choose another one.

After all that is figured out, on top of all that, I now gain Iron Will as a bonus feat for free.

[PhishStyx]

And all that doesn't seem just a little too complicated to you guys?

[Kilrex]

Hit Points: HP=20(d10+2)+6(d8+5)=220. My HP as a humanoid are from my levels and my unmodified Con. My HP as a Lycanthrope are from my animal HD and my modified Con.

Your HP in human form (assuming a +2 modifier) would be:
20(d10 + 2) + 6(d8 + 2)
10 + 19d10 + 6d8 + 52 = Max 300, Min 89, Ave 195

In animal form you would add the new modifier - old modifier, then multiply by number of HD.
(+5 - +2)26, (3)26, or 78 HP which are temp as long as you are in animal form.

[Kilrex]

And all that doesn't seem just a little too complicated to you guys?

Try making a fiendish half-dragon, half-human wizard who later acquires the Lycan template, then spellwarps himself, before transforming himself into a Lich. Of course the DM made him work out all the changes with references listed. Then ruled the spellwarping would make the normal process of making a Lich impossible, thus disintegrating the character in a nice magical explosion.

[Farcaster]

And all that doesn't seem just a little too complicated to you guys?

But its a happy kind of complication.

Besides, it does make it rather robust. Templates are one of the biggest advances of 3rd edition D&D. They leave you with a veritable infinitum of possibilities.

[Ed Zachary]

I've been reading around, and the majority consensus is as stated above, and that I was correct on the hit points.

The only thing that was split 50/50 was the feat selection. Some had the Tiger feats, some left them open to choice... 50/50, so let the DM decide.

Another interesting comment was that magic items adapted size-wise during the change, but not regular items.

Thanks all...

[Ed Zachary]

A Half Dragon / Lycanthrope / Lich would have an LA of +11... that would hurt.

[PhishStyx]

But its a happy kind of complication.

They leave you with a veritable infinitum of possibilities.

No, my ideas do that.

[Ed Zachary]

And all that doesn't seem just a little too complicated to you guys?

It really wouldn't be complicated, if the book was clear on it.

But yeah, beginning players shouldn't be using templates.

The feat issue is still up in the air. Farcaster is assuming that all Tigers would choose the same feats. The book gives an example of common choices picked by most Tigers. They could vary from creature to creature. The afflicted character receives a quantity of feats from the Lycanthrope, not set feats from a specific Tiger.

[Farcaster]

The feat issue is still up in the air. Farcaster is assuming that all Tigers would choose the same feats.

There is certainly more than one approach. Under the Creating a Lycanthrope section of the MM, that is how it lays it out, but reading a bit further there is a specific section on Lycanthropes as characters, which I missed. Using that method, you'd gain only the number of feats as normal for advancing 6 HD, which could be spent on any feat you qualify for.