Supers! House Rules Thread

[AslanC]

I am unable to look them up right now, but I would argue that comics are full of critical fumbles, hell Spider-Man alone must have hundreds of examples.

I will think of some and get back to you

[Dragonfly]

Howdy AslanC,

Spider-Man also has an unluck disadvantage. He gets colds, loses Aunt May's birthday presents, gets accused of all sorts of crimes, and otherwise has a miserable life, but not because he rolls 1's on his Wild Die.

Most superheroes are VERY competant ALL the time. If they fail, it's because the other superhero did better, not because they dropped their shield, twisted their ankle, threw out their back, or otherwise fumbled. Think about it. How many superhero games have such a mechanic? Most of them have a mechanic for improving results (Hero Points, Hero Dice, etc.), but none of the good ones, anyway, have the fumble mechanic. How does such a mechanic help emulate the genre? Have you ever played a superhero game and said, "Oh man! This game would be PERFECT if only my character sucked more!" With that mechanic, you'd probably end up having players blow Competency Dice to compensate for the -1d6 to their roll. That would be a shame, as Competency Dice should be used for cool things, not to mitigate penalties.

Just for kicks, I picked up 10 random comics from my collection, and flipped through them. I saw examples of what might be called failed rolls, but SUPERS! already accounts for that. Events that qualify as fumbles? None - and yes, some of them were even Spider-Man comics (although I know that he would qualify for quite a few).

Now I'm laughing at myself for going off on this so passionately! Please, don't take any of this the wrong way. You just caught me when I'm sleep deprived.

Cheers!

Dragonfly

[Simon W]

I agree - I'm not keen on fumbles in a superhero rpg. If you want your character to suck at something specific, fine give him a disad.

On the Wild Die - yeah, I don't mind so much an exploding die but don't include a fumble!

[Dustland]

Have you ever played a superhero game and said, "Oh man! This game would be PERFECT if only my character sucked more!"

Well said sir!

[AslanC]

Well I will stand to the side and be the voice of difference on this one

[AslanC]

But... let me add this.

It often amazes or even confuses me when people expect a roleplaying game to emulate something through randomness and multiple input that is normally scripted by one or two people.

When you can have the actual dice be more than just a resolution but an actual dramatic event as well, that adds a meta element to a roleplaying game that, for me and my players, adds to the excitement of sitting around a table and bouncing dice.

Comics are a completely different media than roleplaying games, and while there can and should be crossovers, there must and will be differences. Once cannot be the other.

To side step into fantasy, there are generally two types of fantasy I have seen in novels over the yeas, fantasticly well thought out and delivered stories, or transcriptions of someone's D&D game (yes there are finer shades of grey, but for my purposes here I reduce them to this).

You can always tell the difference between the two and one would hope prefer the former to the latter.

I cannot help but think that sword cuts both ways. You could never truly get Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns or even Crisis on Infinite Earths in a roleplaying game. The lack of control of the plot, the opinions and actions of players, etc... would conspire to thwart such a tale being told.

BUT

You could tell your own stories, using the medium's strengths and advantages to your benefit.

In a d20 system, many people use the 20 is a crit and 1 is a fumble. You have a 5% chance of hitting either, but man-oh-man the reaction at the table can't be bought for either of those. The way the players will explode when that natural 20 hits the table or cringe and even joke at the roller's expense when the 1 comes up.

Those are the moments that I love about rpgs.

For me the dice are an integral part of it all, and I like the fumbles as well as the successes. That said, I do believe a character's fate should NEVER be decided by a fumble, death of a super should be a rare and powerful thing, I do think the drama of it and the risk heightens the gaming experience and makes for a lot of fun.

Not to mention the joy the player's get when the villain drops that 1.

Just my two cents, and obviously as we have established, your mileage may (and in this case WILL) vary.

Still friends?

[Dragonfly]

Howdy!

It often amazes or even confuses me when people expect a roleplaying game to emulate something through randomness and multiple input that is normally scripted by one or two people.

Well, I guess people play RPGs for different reasons. Genre emulation is somewhat important to me. It's not the ONLY reason I play, but it's one of many reasons. When I play a superhero game I want thrills akin to those that I experience when I read a comic. I don't expect said game to play EXACTLY like a comic book reads, because the game, as you say, isn't entirely scripted, but I also wouldn't willfully introduce elements into the game that undercut the narrative style evident in the source material, which is what I believe your proposed fumble rules would do. I don't see what's so amazing or confusing about that.

Let me say another thing: More than any other game I've played, SUPERS! DOES allow you to script the story. The abstract nature of task resolution encourages this. Let's take Gwen Stacey's death. The Green Goblin drops Gwen from an incredible height. Spider-Man goes to catch her in a web. Gwen, like most non-supers, is a Rating 1 character. The Judge rules that Spidey's player has to successfully catch her, or Gwen will die. He Judge also rules that due to the distance, the fact that Spidey is in the midst of combat, and other variables, catching Gwen is a Difficulty 9 (Hard) action. Spidey has Webs 6D, and rolls a total of 8 (2,2,1,1,1,1). It's a horrible roll. Statistically, such rolls only happen once in a while, but they happen. Poor Gwen dies. How does she die? The rules don't specify. Maybe Spidey missed entirely? Maybe he snagged her by her leg, and Gwen's neck broke? Maybe she was already dead when the Goblin hurled her off the bridge, or maybe she died on her way down from fright induced heart attack? The Judge gets to decide - no trick of the dice required. SUPERS! is beautiful, in part, because of the LACK of system. Die gimmicks don't get in the way of story-telling.

When you can have the actual dice be more than just a resolution but an actual dramatic event as well, that adds a meta element to a roleplaying game that, for me and my players, adds to the excitement of sitting around a table and bouncing dice.

I can understand that. Rolling doubles in BASH is exciting in that way. I get it. It's just that if I want to play a die gimmick game, I'd rather play BASH!. I love SUPERS! for the narrative elements, which are somewhat impinged upon by die gimmicks. Why not embrace what's awesome about SUPERS! rather than try to turn it into a possibly pale imitation of other systems? That, and I stand by my statement that superhero's don't fumble, man!

You could never truly get Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns or even Crisis on Infinite Earths in a roleplaying game. The lack of control of the plot, the opinions and actions of players, etc... would conspire to thwart such a tale being told..

BUT

You could tell your own stories, using the medium's strengths and advantages to your benefit.

AMEN! However, you are talking about RPGs as if they are a single medium. D&D is a different medium than Champions, which is a different medium than SUPERS!, etc. If you are playing in a particular genre, then you might want to pick a game (a medium) that has mechanisms befitting that genre. You admit that the game's elements will thwart the telling of comicbook style tales, so why add even more conspirators into the mix?

Still friends?

Sure! It's just a game, after all!

Cheers!

Dragonfly

[Jukeboxer]

Here's another little tweak I will try for my SUPERS games:

Mooks in Groups
Treat Mooks as Henchmen with a rating of 2 or 3. When a hero attacks a group of Mooks, then each increment of 2 or 3 takes out a Mook. For example, Batman lands in the midst of 8 thugs with a rating of 3 each. He attacks the gang with a Fighting roll of 12, knocking out 4 thugs. The attack value for a group of Mooks remains 1 pt per Mook in the group per the SUPERS rules.

This will allow a street level hero to get in the middle of a group of thugs and potentially take-out several of them in the first round. The current rules make a group of 7 or more thugs fairly resistant to attrition for a couple of rounds until the group rating is whittled down to a manageable size.

[Jukeboxer]

I was thinking of a new Aptitude:

Subterfuge - You are skilled at trickery and deceit. Your cleverness allows you to lure enemies into a disadvantage. This aptitude may be used for attack or defense, but each use in a scene, reduces the effectiveness by one die. Alternatively, subterfuge dice may also be spent as Competency dice to boost other Aptitude or Power rolls. Common complications would include Device, and Limited Use.

Having conducted this game a bit now, I think the Subterfuge idea above would be best represented as the Presence aptitude with Subterfuge as a specialty. So for instance, the Red Skull could be rated thusly:

Presence 4d (Menacing, Subterfuge) So if either of his specialties are applicable, he rolls 4d, otherwise he rolls 3d.

The Joker could be:

Presence 5d (Subterfuge)

Yeah, I'm still getting the hang of this. LOL!

[AslanC]

See I would write them as Presence 3D (Menacing 4D/Subterfuge 4D)

Weird how different folks write these things... sorry to interrupt, that just struck me as interesting

[Dustland]

See I would write them as Presence 3D (Menacing 4D/Subterfuge 4D)

+1 for the very same reason you did but didn't point out, multiple specialties!

[Jukeboxer]

See I would write them as Presence 3D (Menacing 4D/Subterfuge 4D)

Weird how different folks write these things... sorry to interrupt, that just struck me as interesting

Actually, I like that too, since you could note differing levels of specialization under the same aptitude.

[Dustland]

I posted this here : http://bzenithcomicspresents.runboard.com/t6

Split Attack (SA) variant: For each 1d in SA you can make one more attack with the power/aptitude. However each attack is at the full value of the power less the number of attacks made. With this rule you can take more dice in SA than you have in the power, with each attack made at a minimum of 1d.

For Example:

Gold Rush has Super Speed 3d (SA 1d). Each round he could attack with Super Speed 3d once, or Super Speed 2d twice.

Frostbite has Paralysis [covers opponent in ice] 5d (SA 3d). He could split his attacks as follows:
1) 1 attack @ 5d
2) 2 attacks @ 4d
3) 3 attacks @ 3d
4) 4 attacks @ 2d

And finally, to illustrate the "minimum 1d" rule...

The Warrior Wombat has Fighting 3d (SA 3d). Here are his options:
1) 1 attack @ 3d
2) 2 attacks @ 2d
3) 3 attacks @ 1d
4) 4 attacks @ 1d (so obviously he'd be making either 1,2, or 4 attacks)

Edited Warrior Wombat's attack totals!

Thoughts?

[Dragonfly]

Very interesting, Dustland! I like it in theory. I worry that it's a tad more complex than Split Attack as presented in the RAW, but I was never fully convinced that Split Attack was worth the cost as written (even though I use it quite a bit in my builds). This would model speedsters quite well and, as you said in the other thread, it shouldn't step on Area Attacks' toes. I wonder if it makes Split Attack TOO effective, but maybe not.

THIS looks like a job for ... PLAYTEST! :-)

Cheers!

Dragonfly