Knowledge Devotion Feat for Duskblade

[dougefersheezy]

Hi all,

Seems like i only get on here to ask for help and never have any feedback so I apologize for that. We're starting a new campaign and I'm rolling with a duskblade. I've already chose a large amount of knowledge skills because I want to qualify for the knowledge devotion feat. However, when we were looking at the feat tonight, none of us (including the DM) are clear on the knowledge devotion feat. As an arcane / warrior type class, the DM is saying that I'd need to dip into a divine class with the knowledge domain in order to qualify for the knowledge devotion feat. It's still very early and I have a lot of time to work with, but I'd like to know if that's the case. From the handbook that I've read, it didn't say anything about needing a divine dip to qualify. Can anyone provide reasoning either for or against why I should or should not qualify for the knowledge devotion feat based on NOT having a dip into a divine class? My DM is extremely open as long as I can provide justification. As always, your help if greatly appreciated.

[nijineko]

The rules are quite clear: the only prereq is knowledge (any) 5 ranks. There is no prereq of having a domain, nor having a divine based class. The general rules about the domain type feats are given on page 52. The basic idea is that in order to take one, you either have to believe in a deity that has that portfolio option, or believe in the principles related to said domain, if the character does not believe in a deity listed. You still have to follow alignment and theme restrictions. As I mentioned, there are no class or class feature requirements.

[dougefersheezy]

Thanks Nijineko. We're still trying to sort through it since my character isn't the least bit divine or a champion. We're trying to maintain balance in the party and this feat in particular seems to be overpowering... as much as I'd like to have it.

[Trillous]

The rules are quite clear: the only prereq is knowledge (any) 5 ranks. There is no prereq of having a domain, nor having a divine based class.

Hello nijineko,

What is your interpretation of this comment in the Complete Champion book page 52?
If you are a cleric (or any other character class who gains access to a domain), you can choose any domain feat corresponding to the list of domains offered by your deity, even if you do not have access to those particular domains.

[nijineko]

that specific part applies to you only if you are a cleric or character who has domain access, and has a deity. basically it goes in line with the comments about having to make choices based on your beliefs. it's basically telling you that if you are a cleric, etc., your choices are more limited.

[Tim Proctor]

Well the CC book says that 1) You and the DM should determine the reason for this devotion, 2) You can select a domain feat at any level. 3) You cannot select a second unless it fits thematically. 4) You can never have more than two unless specified in the cleric section below. 5) they are spell-like abilities.

Now there is a section bolded that says "Clerics and Domain Feasts" that states the part about choosing according to domains you have, etc. Since you're a Duskblade nothing in that section will be relevant to you.

[dougefersheezy]

Thanks for all of the feedback, everyone. It looks like the DM is willing to house rule the feat so we're working on that. The reasoning for the house ruling is that it has been deemed overpowered. There were a few reasons for deciding that: 1) Unlimited duration. 2) No chance for failure. 3) Unlimited usage. After reading some information on knowledge checks and how they work for determining information, I can't say that I disagree with the "No chance for failure" portion... since it's knowledge based...

[nijineko]

you are welcome. please post what house rules are eventually decided upon for those of us who are interested. =D

[dougefersheezy]

Nothing is finalized on the house rules yet, and we don't play again for at least another month so it will likely be a long time until a final decision is made. As such, I'll throw my proposal out there and see what you think:

1) Duration (rds) = 1d6 + 1/2 Character Level rounded down.
2) Applicable Attacks = Must be proficient with the weapon used. Insight bonus applies to any attack requiring an attack roll. Damage bonus works normally.
3) Base DC Requirements
+1 = DC 15 + Challenge Rating of the Enemy
+2 = DC 20 + Challenge Rating of the Enemy
+3 = DC 25 + Challenge Rating of the Enemy
+4 = DC 30 + Challenge Rating of the Enemy
+5 = DC 35 + Challenge Rating of the Enemy

Basically this means that someone with an 18 INT (+4 bonus) and maxed ranks in the appropriate knowledge check will need a 8 to get the +1 to an equal level enemy. He will need a 13 to get +2 and an 18 to get +3. He will never be able to get +4 or +5 against an equal level enemy without some sort of magical or ability modifier.

I based the check on the way that a knowledge check works for how much a character knows about a particular creature. It is explained here:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...ore_Compendium

The knowledge check for determining how much a character knows about a creature is based on a DC 10 + CR or HD. Since the automatic +1 on knowledge devotion was one of the main points of contention, I figured a DC 15 base was more appropriate... but I sure would like the DC 10 for our house rule instead...

[nijineko]

maxed ranks at what level?

maxed ranks = 23 ranks normally. which with your hypothetical 18 int person means they get a +3 automatically without even having to roll. and they would only need an 8 or more to get the +5. magic items will grant up to +10 or +15 depending on the rules in question. course, that's at 20th level, when such heroic feats are rather expected.

i think there should be penalties on either side based on intimidate, fear, shaken, and so forth.

[dougefersheezy]

Please keep in mind that the system we've proposed factors in the CR of the enemy. At level 20 and fighting a CR 20 enemy, the rolls would be much tougher.

15+20 = 35 needed for +1
20+20 = 40 needed for +2
25+20 = 45 needed for +3
30+20 = 50 needed for +4
35+20 = 55 needed for +5

The hypothetical 18 INT character with max ranks (and nothing else) will have the 27 total ranks at lvl 20. So with a maximum roll of 20+27 = 47, +3 is the max bonus. Without other knowledge improvements, he/she will never be able to get a +4 or +5 against a same "level" enemy.

Anyway, that's just the proposal for now. I'm beginning to suspect that a DC 10 base or a different scaling will be needed to make it more accessible since most characters will not have their knowledge skills maxxed-out every level. What do you think?

[nijineko]

it depends on the character, build, concept, and rp factors. the cr system assumes four pcs versus whatever the encounter is.

also, if int is the primary stat, by 20th level, it is very unlikely that the character will not have a +6 int item. overall, not too bad. some might argue that the +4 or 5 should only be attainable via magic, but that argument falls down a bit when compared with the rest of the system.

[The Bard]

There is no unlimited duration nor usage on Domain Feats. It states that you get to use it ONCE a day unless you are a cleric that sacrifices turn undead attempts at the conversion rate listed for each Feat. I play clerics exclusively and it has been a reasoning behind no one getting these but me.

You can only use them once a day for the duration listed unless you are a divine caster that can turn undead.