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Thread: the thoughtlessness of the anti-tights people in superhero gaming

  1. #31
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    It seems that we will find ourselves at opposite ends of the spectrum in some regards then.


    I feel that moral depth and reality does not preclude or lessen hope or idealism. If you truly wish to gain hope for human nature, i suggest interacting directly with a broader range of humans than you currently do, rather than turn to any form of media.

    My experiences directly interacting with mendicants, addicts, yakuza, CE*s, rich, poor, middle class, ignorant, educated, random people on the street, and so on in multiple countries has led me to have an increased hope and belief in human nature, which in turn has caused me to be branded as idealistic in a negative sense... interestingly enough, usually by those who do not have nearly the breadth of experiences that I have had, meager and few though they may be.



    ^^
    nijineko the gm: AG16, CoS. nijineko the player: AtG, RttToH; . The Journal of Tala'elowar Kiyiik! .
    CrystalBallLite: the best dice roller on the planet! . nijineko the archivist: the 3.x archive

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildofAeon View Post
    Nowhere else can you find aliens fighting mystics and have a plot that makes a lick of sense. No where else can fantasy and sci-fi tropes coexist. THIS is to me what makes Supers enjoyable. It's the one environment where mixing genres can be done well.
    I quite agree -- and you will find many professional critics of the superhero genre who agree with this sentiment also.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChildofAeon View Post
    Do we really need capes and tights, or are they just an aesthetic choice for heroes that hearkens back to an age where morality meant something different, and athletics was bound by those rules?
    Do we really need them? Of course not. What we really need is for people to think -- and rejecting capes and tights because one fails to understand why the trope exists in the first place or rejecting capes and tights because one is smugly thoughtless is the opposite of thinking. And people who celebrate a lifelong and incessant refusal to use their minds and their learning and their wisdom may be as human as the rest of us, but they are not geeks, nor do they belong at the gaming table. Nor, for that matter, do they merit any real respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChildofAeon View Post
    I don't think idealism and hope can coexist with the real world as much as many comic universes allow it to coexist with their settings
    Except that NOTHING can exist with the real world as much as superhero comic books, which function according to the Rule of Cool and to myth and metaphor rather than adhering to scientific principles about the world and about human nature -- and which is why we can have "aliens fighting mystics" in them as an everyday occurence.

    Quote Originally Posted by nijineko View Post
    My experiences directly interacting with mendicants, addicts, yakuza, CE*s, rich, poor, middle class, ignorant, educated, random people on the street, and so on in multiple countries has led me to have an increased hope and belief in human nature, which in turn has caused me to be branded as idealistic in a negative sense... interestingly enough, usually by those who do not have nearly the breadth of experiences that I have had, meager and few though they may be.
    When I meet people who have only a negative image of idealism, I know I am likely meeting people whose credibility is now in question, for to perceive idealism entirely negatively requires a fairly stubborn dismissal of reality, and if their views fail to match up to reality on this issue, on what other issues do they fail to match up to reality as well? (That, or a confused perception of what the term means.)
    Last edited by magic-rhyme; 02-28-2014 at 02:57 AM.

  3. #33
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    I read everything.

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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by magic-rhyme View Post
    If they are really that ignorant about superhero fiction as a thriving subgenre with its own legitimate history and its own logical bases for its tropes and traditions, why would they pretend to want to play in a superhero campaign?
    Quote Originally Posted by magic-rhyme View Post
    some of the grittier superhero comic books have turned away from capes and tights as a statement against idealism -- but they have done so to make a statement, not as a thoughtless reaction against something they failed to understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by magic-rhyme View Post
    Whenever I meet a potential superhero player who mouths this kind of anti-tights, anti-cape inanity, I find it hard to imagine that player could be anything better than a disruption in any authentic superhero campaign. Does this person really know anything about superheroes at all?
    Quote Originally Posted by magic-rhyme View Post
    (I've met players who think Wolverine was created before Superman!), but more often, this is a player who has absolutely no interest in superheroes but only wants to hack and slash in a modern city. (Often, the same player also scoffs at capes on superheroes -- but loves the cape on his D&D or WoW character!)
    The entirety of this thread all circles back to an old saying we had in the geek community and the gaming community for most of their existences but which seems to have been forgotten the past couple of years:

    " Never waste time talking with, gaming with, or giving any respect to people who are intentionally stupid. "

    A key point is the phrase *intentionally* stupid. This says nothing about ignorant people -- they can always learn. This says nothing about people with health issues disrupting their intelligence. This says nothing about people who are still in the midst of their educations. This says nothing about people who hold different opinions.

    This wonderful old saying refers only to those people who go out of their way to know nothing, understand nothing, and value nothing. This wise old saying refers only to those people who are stubbornly anti-intellectual and obnoxiously indifferent to history, science, scholarship, and any other body of learning.

    There are many ways to recognize people who are intentionally stupid so that one can avoid wasting time talking to them, gaming with them, or giving any respect to them.

    When it comes to superhero roleplaying games, an easy way to recognize them is by their thoughtless, kneejerk, proudly ignorant hatred for capes and tights (as opposed to the worthwhile people who may dislike capes or tights but do so for thoughtful, measured, intelligent reasons of their own, whatever such reasons might be).

    Or they claim to hate all capes (but love the capes in LOTR and Game of Thrones) and claim to hate anyone who wears trunks over their tights (but love the boxers, basketball stars, and Olympic medalists who wear trunks over their tights) but smugly refuse to notice their hypocrisy.

    We would all be better off as a community, as a country, and as a species if we thought more and tolerated thoughtlessness less.
    Last edited by magic-rhyme; 03-20-2014 at 05:32 AM.

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    That's funny, my single criteria (of two parts) for determining whom I game with filters out those sorts of "intentionally stupid" almost automatically.
    nijineko the gm: AG16, CoS. nijineko the player: AtG, RttToH; . The Journal of Tala'elowar Kiyiik! .
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    Quote Originally Posted by nijineko View Post
    That's funny, my single criteria (of two parts) for determining whom I game with filters out those sorts of "intentionally stupid" almost automatically.
    Unfortunately, the infamous geek fallacies http://plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html are still with us even today.

    When it comes to this thread, the important thing is that people have an opportunity to understand the logic and wisdom underlying the original use of tights and capes in superhero comic books (and later superhero films and television series).

    Those who choose to go without tights and capes even after understanding their origin have every right to do so, and I support fully their right to make this choice even though I disagree with it and will choose otherwise in my own gaming circles.

    Those who can't be bothered to understand what they condemn (such as those who condemn tights and capes without bothering to understand them) aren't worth thinking about or knowing -- but the infamous geek fallacies make people forget that, so it is worthwhile to remind them every once in a while.

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    just tossing in here as a side comment, but i laughed quite amusedly when the "no capes" inversion of the trope was made in the incredibles movie.
    nijineko the gm: AG16, CoS. nijineko the player: AtG, RttToH; . The Journal of Tala'elowar Kiyiik! .
    CrystalBallLite: the best dice roller on the planet! . nijineko the archivist: the 3.x archive

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nijineko View Post
    just tossing in here as a side comment, but i laughed quite amusedly when the "no capes" inversion of the trope was made in the incredibles movie.
    Yeah, that was one of the many great moments of the film! Inspired by Alan Moore's original Watchmen series no less.

    It also makes sense even in a pro-cape comic book: rubber characters like Elasti-Girl and speedsters like Dash never wear capes in the comic books, and the only "hard light" manipulator like Ultra Violet who wears a cape is the Alan Scott Green Lantern from the Golden Age, I think (and he wore the easily detached sort of cape worn in real life by soldiers and adventurers in the past). I can't remember any brick character like Mr. Incredible wearing a cape, either; it's always been those who could fly in addition to any superstrength who wore capes. (Of course, not one of the bad things which happens to the cape-wearers in The Incredibles would have presented any problems for Superman, Thor, Supergirl, The Batman, etc., who are either too tough for even a jet engine to threaten or too skilled not to escape.)

    That scene has been a little ruined for me after hearing too many players quote it at me and then later admit they had never in their lives read a superhero comic book or novel and never seen a superhero film or cartoon other than The Incredibles so they really had no idea what they were talking about.

    But their contemptible ignorance does not lessen how hilarious the anti-capes argument was in The Incredibles!

    Especially when the dialogue all comes from Edna Mode!

  9. #39
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    personally i've always wanted to look good in a cape. ^^ based on my limited experiences and opportunities, i believe i favor the more victorian era opera capes, sometimes combined with a trench coat. somewhat holmesian or steampunk, i understand.
    nijineko the gm: AG16, CoS. nijineko the player: AtG, RttToH; . The Journal of Tala'elowar Kiyiik! .
    CrystalBallLite: the best dice roller on the planet! . nijineko the archivist: the 3.x archive

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by nijineko View Post
    personally i've always wanted to look good in a cape. ^^ based on my limited experiences and opportunities, i believe i favor the more victorian era opera capes, sometimes combined with a trench coat. somewhat holmesian or steampunk, i understand.
    Or perhaps a Sherlockian cloak?

  11. #41
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    what about shamrockian? ^^
    nijineko the gm: AG16, CoS. nijineko the player: AtG, RttToH; . The Journal of Tala'elowar Kiyiik! .
    CrystalBallLite: the best dice roller on the planet! . nijineko the archivist: the 3.x archive

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by nijineko View Post
    what about shamrockian? ^^
    Fake stone?

  13. #43
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    shamrock-ian. ^^
    nijineko the gm: AG16, CoS. nijineko the player: AtG, RttToH; . The Journal of Tala'elowar Kiyiik! .
    CrystalBallLite: the best dice roller on the planet! . nijineko the archivist: the 3.x archive

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