How did it happen?

[Simon W]

How did Icons steal Supers! thunder?

Icons is nice. But it isn't any better. Darrel's art is nicer than the Icons art. How come Icons got nominated for loads of awards and Supers! is unknown?

I'm not bitter - just interested.

Thoughts?

[Dragonfly]

Hi Simon!

There are probably several reasons, but I think it largely boils down to star power.

Steve Kenson is a BIG DEAL in the superhero RPG community. His Mutants & Masterminds did several things:

1) It matched HERO System's (Champions) comprehensiveness, while beating it in terms of quickness of play.

2) It piggy-backed off the popularity of d20 while avoiding its worst features.

As a consequence, he created an industry standard and accumulated a great deal of well-deserved capital amongst fans of superhero RPGs. The M&M fan base is as loyal as the Champions/HERO System fan base (which is pretty loyal), but more current. Steve's active presence on the fan forums enhanced this loyalty and grew his own personal popularity. People grew to know and trust him, because he's always been an active and enthusiastic part of discussions that deal with his games, and because he's a pretty nice guy. When he announced that he'd be doing a rules lite game (and hinted in several interviews that he prefers rules lite games) people were immediately interested. This was instant hype, and he fueled the flames, which is very smart on his part.

Now, you have industry respect too, but it's mostly for Barbarians of Lemuria. Indeed, many people think that Supers! is BoL with superheroes. This misconception might keep some folks from trying it out, thinking that they already know how the system works and they can't imagine it working for superheroes. Some people buy it HOPING that it's BoL for superheroes, and then get disappointed when it isn't (which is too bad, because they are not really giving it a chance on its own merits).

Recently, I've been wondering if the name Supers! actually hurts the game's chances of getting noticed. I suspect that when I type Supers! in a subject line, some people think I'm talking about the genre rather than the game. I started musing on this during the recent "M&M vs. Marvel Heroic vs. Supers!" over on rpg.net. People seemed not to know that we were talking about three games, so I kept highlighting that fact. Some folks actually seemed to get interested after a few exchanges.

Finally, if you are going to compare it to ICONS, I think support is a huge factor as well. Folks who bought ICONS had instant access to several very-well-done adventures, a character generator, and a few other odds-and-ends. Support always helps.

As for the art - that's subjective. I agree with you. I like Darrel's art better. I'm NOT a big fan of the art in ICONS. That, however, is somewhat subjective. I think there are MANY superhero fans out there who prefer a more modern sensibility for their superhero games, and Supers! often comes off as being very retro - very Silver Age. Some folks just don't like that. BASH UE is interesting in these regards. It strikes an Animated Series sensibility, which actually straddles all sorts of sub-genres quite nicely (Golden, Silver, and Modern).

All that being said, I would love to see Supers! achieve greater visibility. The question, for me, isn't, "How did ICONS steal Supers! thunder?" It's, "How can Supers! steal some of ICONS' thunder, and achieve the respect it deserves?"

If you ask me, they are not equivalent systems. Supers! is far superior. Yes, that's subjective too. I guess the superhero RPG community should way in on that before a consensus is reached. The issue, I think, is that Supers! remains unknown, so people haven't weighed in on its considerable merits. I'm hoping the various upcoming projects will help it get noticed.

Sorry for the long message. Thoughts? Am I way off base here?

Best,

Dragonfly

[burbleflurp]

Hi,
Just joined this site minutes ago to ask a specific question about Supers! (Oh and thanks for making it Simon) and then saw this thread. Rather than start a new topic I decided to post it here 'cos I feel its relevant. I purchased both Icons and Supers! to play one of them with my kids after watching them enjoy various superhero cartoon series, and felt that Supers! more closely matched the genre. To help me run an adventure, I tried finding an actual play podcast, but couldn't find one anywhere? Maybe my google skills aren't up to it - but typing in 'icons actual play' spits out far more results that 'supers! actual play' (er zero?).

I find these things useful to give me a feel for the system, and the only thing I've seen that comes close was in a nice U-tube video review (Sorry - can't remember more details, but was posted mid-late last year?).

Does such a beast exist - as I feel this would help newcomers to play the system (If I'm right about how the system should be played) and help intrigue other superhero rpgers.

[Simon W]

No, I think you are both right. Icons had a huge buzz long before it came out, because of the names behind it. Supers! came out first (in pdf) and generated quite a lot of interest, but then Cubicle 7 delayed it coming out in print, so Icons beat it and then it completely overshadowed Supers!Many people looking for a rules-lite superheroic rpg would have ended up picking up Icons and not given Supers! a second look - even though, if they picked it up, they might actually prefer it. But they probably never need to pick it up now or even go looking for another one.The trouble is now there are so many people playing Icons it generates its own buzz - people are bound to post actual pl;ays and so forth because there are loads of players. I don't have the necessary tools to or tech skills to produce an actual play podcast. Perhaps I need to send a copy of Supers! to one of the podcast crews out there? Any thoughts on this?Yeah, the name Supers! seemed a good idea at the time but in retrospect it may have been a bad move, because it simply sounds like a generic name applying to anything superheroic.

[urbwar]

While I agree with Dragonfly's comments, I really feel that C7 mucking up the release of the print version really killed Supers! momentum. There was some good buzz on the game before ICONS came out; had the print version came out on time, I think more people would know about it. Yes, ICONS had a lot of pre-buzz, and it has a lot of support. There are parts of it that I like, but never having played it, I can't say how well it actually works. Some swear by it, but others don't. The lack of an actual product allowed ICONS to really make its mark, especially given it came out before Steve's other opus, M&M 3rd edition. So Supers! fell between the cracks when those two hit game shelves.

I also think that Gareth is a good publicist for his own product. He's always discussing it, and has had various sales for ICONS products (and other Adamant lines) since ICONS came out. Between Gareth and Steve Kenson always being accessible to discussions, it helps keep the game in people's awareness. Supers! doesn't really have that to date. I always tried to pimp the game when I can (along with BASH UE & G Core, my other two current fave supers rpg). I remember once on rpg.net, Gareth made an insinuation that BASH was being mentioned in threads related to ICONS on purpose (ie that the publisher of BASH might be behind it). He shut up once he got a lot of flak over it, because no way would Chris do something like that. Add in that Adamant is a bit larger in scope than BBG is (they did get a license for Buckaroo Banzai, so I suspect they have more funding than you do), and well, they can do more to promote the game.

I also think the fact that Supers! isn't BoL's system for superheroes was something that threw some off. Being it's own system was a turn off for those who thought BoL was a good fit for supers gaming. I felt that way myself, but I bought Supers! to support BBG, and the game won me over.

As for good things: I think Grubman's pimping the game (and his video review) helped. I wish he hadn't soured on the net and took time off, as I'd love to see his supplement come out. Then you've got Dragonfly doing his adaptions on different forums, which I think has been helpful. Darren's releases are good too, though I think they get over looked as he doesn't pimp them much. When I get The Triad out, I plan on pimping it on every forum I can that isn't tied to a specific system (and for those I'll just pimp the version for that system, if there is one). I expect to not make my investment back in the release, but I don't care, because I'm supporting some games I really like. I know Dustland is going to pimp the hell out of his war book (and all ready has on other forums all ready when showcasing some art), and if Dragonfly does put out something (like he's told me he wants to down the road), you'll have someone else pushing that Supers! is getting support.

I think if you were to release more products for Supers!, it might help. Some adventures, maybe a villain pack or something, to show the game is supported. Too many times people think a game is "dead" because the publisher isn't releasing material for it, whether the game needs said material or not.

[novaexpress]

I 100% agree with all was written above.
I discovered Icons because I bought Savage Worlds' Thrilling Tales on Adamant website.
I read it and liked it. However, I didn't like the random character creation, and the fact that the GM doesn't throw any dice, and the art.
And I discovered Supers! because I ordered The Laundry on the C7 website. I checked some reviews about the game, and the vid made by Grubman. Having already bought Icons and Bash UE more or less during the same period, I gave a chance as well to Supers and ordered the book.
But, if I hadn't seen it on C7 website, odds are low that I noticed the game.
I guess that if a publisher doesn't have the means of making advertisement for its game, he unfortunately has to be present on forums and others gaming mediums as often as he can.

[Simon W]

I 100% agree with all was written above.
I discovered Icons because I bought Savage Worlds' Thrilling Tales on Adamant website.
I read it and liked it. However, I didn't like the random character creation, and the fact that the GM doesn't throw any dice, and the art.
And I discovered Supers! because I ordered The Laundry on the C7 website. I checked some reviews about the game, and the vid made by Grubman. Having already bought Icons and Bash UE more or less during the same period, I gave a chance as well to Supers and ordered the book.
But, if I hadn't seen it on C7 website, odds are low that I noticed the game.
I guess that if a publisher doesn't have the means of making advertisement for its game, he unfortunately has to be present on forums and others gaming mediums as often as he can.

I was kinda hoping Cubicle 7 would do more in this regard, but since they publish both Icons and now Bash I guess their loyalties are a bit divided. That's partly why I decided to take it from Cubicle 7 - but I know LULU isn't going to give Supers! much exposure, so I need to pursue other options. Any ideas?

[urbwar]

Have you considered the new company Angus started, or Mongoose's Flaming Cobra imprint? Maybe try IPR again?

[Dragonfly]

Have you considered the new company Angus started, or Mongoose's Flaming Cobra imprint? Maybe try IPR again?

These sound like good suggestions. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the industry to add to this list.

Here is something: Have you considered a 2nd Edition? It wouldn't have to change much. Add a few new powers, expand the Supersville universe a bit, replace some of the duplicated art, refine the layout, maybe add a more expansive starting module, and otherwise add a few odds and ends. It might be worth it to take advantage of some of the playtesting that has gone on since the initial release to make the game a bit more streamlined and comprehensive, and use this as an excuse to attempt to make another big splash?

Maybe the best time to do this is after some of the upcoming supplements have come out. Give them a chance to make some sales, get some feedback on some of the new rules additions that some of us might float in our support products, and then maybe incorporate those that you like (or modifications of those that you like) into a second edition?

I don't know how wise or doable this is, but it strikes me as a way to hit the reset button and try again. I, for one, would be happy to be as helpful to such an endeavor as possible.

Best,

Dragonfly

[burbleflurp]

I like the idea of a new edition (if for no other reasons that I feel Simon's games do develop post publication).
Other possible inclusions...
A number of typical super powers (that were not covered) have been posted on these boards. Or if that causes copyright problems maybe a description as to how to create new powers (to avoid imbalance).

Please please please add further descriptions for the GM.
Two examples of this spring to mind...
1) The combat example 'vs Villains' has no player dialogue. Now I'm not certain about this, but I thought that this was an important part of play (ie not just saying 'I'll attack Krush with a 'Jet of Flame'). This conclusion is based upon the shaded boxes in section 'How to resolve attacks' (This is one of the reasons I wanted an actual play podcast). Could the player dialogue be in normal text and GM description of rules application be in a box?
2) Its only after I'd read the example of the Supercrew vs Burning Skyscraper in the Supercrew rpg that I really understood how 'Disasters' should operate. (Hmmm, I think I'm noticing a trend in my posts - along the lines of more newbie GM help).

P.S. Thanks urbwar - it was the grubman post I was referring to. (If he can post a positive video review, maybe he can do an actual play podcast?)

Other possibilities for promotion - greater presence/continual posting on other rpg board(s)? eg Dragonfly has been brilliant at recently maintaining the '[Supers!] Stuff for Folk to Use!' thread over at rpg.net at, or near the top of the forum (so that you'll see it listed on the front page when you go back to view the forum). As an example, could this thread run on rpg.net rather than here? You're already talking to the converted here I assume....

[urbwar]

Yeah, you should definitely start posting on other sites. I recently joined both the rpgsite and storygames, so you might want to look into those sites.

[Dustland]

If you notice, many games will have an official "first contact" game or module to introduce the product. Sometimes they are released before the official game to give a taste for it and to set the tone, even introduce an official setting that will be supported with the game.

Supers! probably could use something along those lines to help give it some definition other than "yet another rules lite settingless system".

And 100% Burbleflurp (really? ), you can't go wrong with examples!

[Simon W]

I'm not a massive forum poster - I pop in here and Lords of Lemuria every day sometimes twice but don't tend to hang around long. I go to the RPGSite & RPGNet daily too but rarely have much to say, if truth be told (even if there is a thread talking about Supers!). Storygames tends to cater less to traditional types of game.

I had considered Chronicle City but I suspect the problems will be similar to those of Cubicle 7. I'll keep an eye on it though and maybe speak to Angus.

Yeah, a second edition might not be a bad idea. There's certainly some excellent posters here lately, with some great ideas. I'll think about that - it might create a whole new "buzz".

[burbleflurp]

And 100% Burbleflurp (really? ), you can't go wrong with examples!

Sorry, always seem to have trouble finding a forum name thats not used.

[urbwar]

Storygames tends to cater less to traditional types of game.

Not entirely true. I see posts about D&D there, so while they do discuss less traditional games, they do discuss more traditional ones as well. I just saw a new thread regarding Heart & Souls (another supers rpg there), so I don't see why you shouldn't give it a shot

I had considered Chronicle City but I suspect the problems will be similar to those of Cubicle 7. I'll keep an eye on it though and maybe speak to Angus.

It's a newer company, with less product though (and no competing supers games at the moment), so it might be worth a shot. Still, I can understand your hesitation, since Angus was at C7 when all the bad stuff happened.

Yeah, a second edition might not be a bad idea. There's certainly some excellent posters here lately, with some great ideas. I'll think about that - it might create a whole new "buzz".

That would be cool. Also, I know you use Lulu for PoD, but you might want to consider Drivethru for PoD as well. From stories I've read, their PoD is just as good, and you might actually earn more per sale than via Lulu (someone did a breakdown I read, and Drivethru was the best, Createspace 2nd, and Lulu last for the % the author earned in sales). Plus being solely for rpg's, you are likely to get more potential sales, since gamers would look there more often than they might Lulu