Acqua Alta Finale Discussion

[Palpatim]

I'm afraid I've lost track of where everybody is moving, so I'll describe Rogur's actions in terms of intent rather than specifics: He will move along with the front guard of the party, leaving Yrisz to bring up the rear. All his move actions will be with Fleeting Ghost, as he is trying to be stealthy and thus gain combat advantage when he can. If the opportunity presents itself, he'll use Sly Flourish on an enemy, preferably from cover and with Sneak Attack.

He is not interested in taking any damage from the Flaming Sphere, so he won't want to end his turn adjacent to it.

Sorry I can't be more specific, this combat is a little more confined than usual, and Rogur is low enough in the initiative order that it's a bit difficult to post without multiple contingencies that would be difficult to track in any case.

[Umiushi]

Didn't I spend a HS to make sure my cloak was kosher, or didn't I have to worry about it.

In any case, I SHOULD have had a triggered action too, but whatever.

I'm starting to wonder if I'm missing important posts from you. This is my record for purchases from Acqua Alta OOC Post #299. The only item I've got recorded going to Zephyr is the pair of Acrobat Boots, which have strong enough magic that they don't require a healing surge to stay enchanted.

Purchased

• 1 quiver of crossbow bolts (20 total) for 1 ducat to Rogur
• 2 bags of sling bullets (40 total) for 2 ducats to Rogur
• Wooden broach for 10 ducats to Yrisz
• Wine Raisin for 15 ducats to Rogur
• 2 Gray Rain Cloaks for 40 ducats to Rogur and Yrisz
• Everburning torch for 50 ducats to Yrisz
• Acrobat Boots for 520 ducats to Zephyr

This is what I found for Zephyr's Round 1 actions:

Move: just in front of the door to block it from entering foes.
Minor: pull out pick
Free: look menacing

If I missed a readied action in some other post, it's not too late to adjust Round 1. However, I intend to finalize Round 1 and post the Round 2 summary this Sunday. Also, will Zephyr still cast Acid Orb if his target has cover or superior cover?

He is not interested in taking any damage from the Flaming Sphere, so he won't want to end his turn adjacent to it.

This reminds me that my default assumption is going to be that no PC will willingly enter a square adjacent to the Flaming Sphere, even if their posted actions would normally place them there. If anyone wishes me to make an exception for their character, please let me know.

Speaking of the Flaming Sphere, after reading the relevant sections of the rules (and their updates), I think this is how I'm going to handle it:

• The sphere cannot be attacked or physically affected, as per the updated Conjuration rules.
• Unlike most conjurations, the sphere does occupy its space, as per its updated description. In essence, this means that characters may move through its space, but cannot end their turns on its space.
• Other than being a light source and doing fire damage to adjacent creatures, the sphere doesn't affect its surroundings. (Characters cannot use the sphere for cover, for instance.)

[yukonhorror]

First, I must be missing things. First off, I have acrobatic boots? Second, I do have Karu's cloak right? Or did that get sold too? I was FUZZY on which items needed a spent HS and which didn't. For the torch and such, Palp beat me to it, but I SHOULD have done it seeing as I have 11 HS vs his 8 (or whatever). If I don't need to do it for acro boots or Karu's cloak (cloak or resis right?), then I won't.

Third, I SHOULD have done a triggered action. I didn't say I did. I misinterpreted how it works. More of a "kicking myself in the pants" issue rather than , "umi, you missed something". In short, keep round 1 as is.

If the target has cover, yes, still cast. If he has SUPERIOR cover, continue moving closer.

In any case, I'd rather use MY roll versus yours, if that is kosher.

[Palpatim]

For the torch and such, Palp beat me to it, but I SHOULD have done it seeing as I have 11 HS vs his 8 (or whatever).

Only characters carrying the items were able to spend a healing surge to protect them, otherwise I would have been thrilled you let you do so.

--T

[yukonhorror]

I mean, I should have carried it through the threshhold

[Malk0lm]

If combat will continue on the room below then I hope that we will see a map. Also, I would like to find out if Ghost Sound will be able to provide any help for Sneak Attacks or to draw attention away from Rogur.

It seems like cantrips are more for story elements or used as a narrative flourish but if I can use them creatively in battle then I will try to do so.

Umi, perhaps if you can provide some general guidance on the use of cantrips, what you are willing to accept and what you are not, that well alleviate many of my questions.

[Palpatim]

I mean, I should have carried it through the threshhold

Gotcha. Unfortunately, we didn't find out about that until after we came through. That Umiushi, he's such a wacky purveyor of surprises!

[Umiushi]

First, I must be missing things. First off, I have acrobatic boots?

Yes, you do. They were going to either Zephyr or Rogur, and Rogur seemed ambivalent, so they went to Zephyr.

Second, I do have Karu's cloak right?

Yes, you have that too, if I remember correctly. I think I misinterpreted your earlier post to mean you had one of the Gray Rain Cloaks.

If I don't need to do it for acro boots or Karu's cloak (cloak or resis right?), then I won't.

That's correct. They are not at risk for losing their magic. Only minor magical items from the Feywild have that issue.

Third, I SHOULD have done a triggered action. I didn't say I did. I misinterpreted how it works. More of a "kicking myself in the pants" issue rather than , "umi, you missed something". In short, keep round 1 as is.

I see. I misread what you meant.

In any case, I'd rather use MY roll versus yours, if that is kosher.

Yes, actually that die roll in my post was a mistake from copying and pasting your post. Even the forum moderator can't remove a die roll once it's been made.

I mean, I should have carried it through the threshhold

There was no way to know about that particular property of the ritual until it happened.

If combat will continue on the room below then I hope that we will see a map. Also, I would like to find out if Ghost Sound will be able to provide any help for Sneak Attacks or to draw attention away from Rogur.

It seems like cantrips are more for story elements or used as a narrative flourish but if I can use them creatively in battle then I will try to do so.

Umi, perhaps if you can provide some general guidance on the use of cantrips, what you are willing to accept and what you are not, that well alleviate many of my questions.

There will be a map provided for when the lower level comes within view.


I like creative activity, but I too believe that cantrips were not intended to affect combat in more than very limited ways. My rulings will be in keeping with that belief. In general, you can replace an action that your character would already be capable of, with an appropriate cantrip for narrative purposes. The cantrip doesn't change, enhance, or otherwise affect the resolution of the action. I suppose this is a nice way of saying that cantrips are mechanically useless (though see the specific cantrip listings below for some limited exceptions).

For example, let's say Noxias wants to perform a Bluff to gain combat advantage. This is a standard action that can be done once per encounter. (Player's Handbook, page 183.) For narrative purposes, Noxias could use a Prestidigitation cantrip to create the bluff. However, the mechanical resolution is still the same: Bluff vs. Insight, a standard action, and only once per encounter. In other words, Noxias can't bluff with Prestidigitation and then bluff again with the raw Bluff Skill, nor does his use of a Prestidigitation spell give him any advantage over another character's bluff.

Similarly, Ghost Sound could be used as a narrative alternative to an Aid Another on a Stealth check, but in game terms it would be functionally identical to Aid Another: you would have to be adjacent to the character you're aiding, that character would need to be in a position to make a Stealth Check, and the effectiveness of the bonus would be based on your Stealth Check.

Now for specifics:

Ghost Sound
This might have some application to provide misinformation to an NPC, or to communicate secretly over a short distance. It does not grant any mechanical bonuses, but could cause an enemy to make a tactically disadvantageous decision, or create an opportunity to use Bluff or similar skill.

Light
This has the obvious tactical advantage of providing illumination. It absolutely cannot be used to blind or dazzle enemies.

Mage Hand
Mage Hand can only be used to manipulate your personal possessions or unattended objects. Unless a character is Trained in Thievery, Mage Hand cannot be used for pick pocketing attempts (which have a -10 penalty associated with them in combat, in any case). Unless the character in question has the Helpless condition, an object in a character's possession is never unattended, even if the character is immobilized, stunned, restrained, or subject to other, similar conditions. However, dropped objects are unattended. Therefore, Mage Hand may be tactically useful to snatch away the dropped weapons of an enemy.

Prestidigitation
Even among other cantrips, this spell is the least useful in combat. To my mind, it's supposed to be a power to make wizards look "wizardly." It's the most tempting cantrip to use in combat because of the sheer variety of its applications, but this will nearly always result in the waste of a standard action. Occasionally, the ability to light or snuff out a light source can be used to tactical benefit.


If you come up with something impressively creative, I may be tempted to award a once-off bonus. This of course applies to any sort of action, not just cantrips. However, the bar for this is quite high. I'm highly averse to awarding these bonuses for a variety of reasons. Enumerating those reasons led to its own lengthy discourse which I cut from this post and will probably save for my blog, one day.

[Ithelryn]

Wow, I got behind..again...

First, I'll change my earlier story post that suggested that Yrisz had drawn her mace. Second...I'm kind of at a loss with all the moving, much like Palp proved to be...so I'll suggest my actions in the most general terms....

I like the idea of bringing the fight to the gang...though of course we will most like face the same situation they were in assaulting us, limited exposure on the front end, ect. ect...but hay, I guess that is what heroing is rather about...

That said, Yrisz will move forward at the rear of the group. She will cast Sacred Flame (giving the extra temp HP to someone on the front line) if she manages to get within range and she shall also cast Healing Word if somebody drops bellow their bloodied value. There you have it...is anything else needed?

[cutopia]

Here is Konstansz's plan:

Konstansz wishes to stick as closely as she can with those pursuing the thugs.

In her mind she has the following two plans based on what she thinks might happen if the party manages to catch up with the thugs (although if the thugs spring some odd trap upon us, etc. then she will have to improvise and I will replan her actions--otherwise the following is what I'd like her to do when she has the opportunity):

Regardless of enemy configuration, she'd like to curse an enemy at the first opportunity when she can see one and has a minor action to spare. May the stars chart them a fate of endless torment!

If she is confronted by a clump of them (2 or more) that would fit nicely in her range 3 blast, Clarion Call, she would use that as a standard action.

If there is no convenient clump she would simply hit the one closest to her with Eldritch Blast (and move as needed to stay out of the reach of enemies while casting).

Now that the numbers are back in her favor she is eager to put an end to these miscreants!

[Umiushi]

This post complements the fifth main post in the Acqua Alta Finale thread. Players' posts in either thread are due by 11 pm, Tuesday, March 20th. The next OOC main post will appear by 11 pm, Thursday, March 22nd.

If the movement has left people confused, please don't think of me as an exception. As my usual practice, I've reserved squares in posting order:

1. Konstansz
2. Noxias
3. Zephyr
4. Marc
5. Rogur
6. Yrisz

Nobody expressed any intention to wind up adjacent to the flaming sphere, so the thug is currently enjoying a little bit of a buffer.

My suggestion for added clarity is to continue to, as we have done in past combats, express movement in terms of the exact location square or specific relative distance as much as possible. In other words, do it like Noxias's round 2 actions. Also, check the order you post in. Your character can go to any free square unless someone posted above you targeting that specific square.

I understand that certain circumstances can make this impossible. For example, Konstansz wishes to pursue behind another PC, but has the first post in. Based on initiative order, she would be pursuing behind Marc, but has no way of knowing where Marc will end up until Marc's actions are posted. Thus we have a chain of ambiguity that extends all the way down.

I do not have an immediate way to resolve this, and I do not want to suggest that anyone wait on their posts; please continue to make them as soon as you're ready. Therefore, I just note this as something to keep an eye on. If we get another chain of ambiguity for round three, I'll try to think of something.

One possible solution is added discussion. Make your post, target a specific square, state your reasons for that targeting that square, and discuss your options with the other players. Actions can be revised throughout the player posting period. Now, if the player you need to talk to can only get in their own actions at the tail end of the posting period, this is obviously not going to work, but it might be worth a try. The danger to this is even more uncertainty.

If anyone decides to engage in such discussion, I would like to make an added observation: stating that a character essentially "might do something but really doesn't have to" is commendable for being courteous and respectful, but creates a very ambiguous situation. For instance, when I read a statement like that, I have no idea whether to apply a character's actions or not. Therefore, I suggest going about such a discussion by starting with firm statements of intent and a willingness to revise when necessary, or at least making sure to turn any ambiguous statements into a solid commitment or denial by the end of the posting period.


Current Map:

At the end of Round Two, all three staircase squares on the MagusL3 map are visible to Zephyr. All staircase squares except the square directly north of the round pillar are visible to Konstansz, Marc, Noxias, and Rogur. Only the staircase square directly east of the round pillar is visible to Yrisz.

For convenience I'm now showing the MagusL2 map for the next level down. Please note that none of these squares are visible to anyone in the party except for the four northeastern-most squares which share positions with the MagusL3 map.

Downstairs Map:

If you wish to move into an unseen square you may do so, and you may use the provided map to guide you. However, you only move until your progress is blocked (presumably by creatures and objects not shown on the map). Unless you specify otherwise, I will also assume that you stop moving as soon as your next movement will trigger an attack of opportunity. However, it may be the case that your character will unknowingly trigger attacks of opportunity: from hidden locations, for example. Those will be resolved normally.

At your discretion, you may specify that you are willing to move in ways that trigger attacks of opportunity. If you have second move actions available, you may specify that they will be used if your initial move action is blocked.

Round Two Summary
Marc (Initiative Count 13)
Expended: none
Hands Free: one
Held: longsword
Status: normal.

Move Action: pursue, staying adjacent to Zephyr. (Cost 1; normal - E.)

Konstansz (Initiative Count 10)
Expended: none
Hands Free: none
Held: rod, everburning torch
Status: Shadow Walk

Move Action: follow close behind pursuing allies. (Cost 6; shadow walk - NE, 5xE. Konstansz gains concealment.)

Minor Action: lay Warlock's Curse on thug. (Curse laid on thug #1 at distance 3.)

Standard Action: cast Eldritch Blast on thug. (Ranged Rod -5 vs. Reflex at distance 3. Konstansz rolls 14 modified to 16 - hits. Konstansz rolls 1 and modified to 7. Warlock's Curse - Konstansz rolls 3, for a total of 10 points of damage, bloodying the thug.)

Zephyr (Initiative Count 9)
Expended: rope, sun rod, Acid Orb (encounter), Arcane Prodigy (encounter)
Hands Free: one
Held: heavy war pick (not wielded)
Status: normal

Move Action: pursue thug. (Cost 3; normal - SE, 2xE.)

Minor Action: hold pick in one hand.

Standard Action: cast Acid Orb. (Ranged Basic Acid vs. Reflex at distance 3. Hits for 11 points of acid damage with Arcane Prodigy.)

Yrisz (Initiative Count 7)
Expended: sun rod, 2 healing potions, 1 healing surge
Hands Free: one
Held: everburning torch, holy symbol (worn)
Status: normal

Move Action: move forward at the rear. (Cost 4; normal - 4xE.)

Noxias (Initiative Count 6++)
Expended: none
Hands Free: one
Held: staff
Status: sustaining Flaming Sphere

Minor Action: sustain Flaming Sphere.

Move Action: head east. (Cost 4; normal - 4xE.)

Move Action: send Flaming Sphere down the stairs. (Cost 4; normal - E, 2xN. Final north square is occupied.)

Technically, this means Noxias moved into the space occupied by the Flaming Sphere, but since this is all happening on his turn, I think I can get away with saying the two move actions are interleaved. Hopefully this ruling won't haunt me later.

Rogur (Initiative Count 6+)
Expended: 7 crossbow bolts, 18 sling bullets, 1 healing surge
Hands Free: one
Held: sling
Status: Rogur is trying to hide from the enemy.

Move Action: move along with the front of the party. (Cost 3; fleeting ghost - 3xE. Rogur makes a Stealth Check to hide.)

#1 - Matchless Gang Thug (Initiative Count 6)
Held: mace, dagger
Status: out of sight, cursed, bloodied
37 points of damage

Start of Turn: Thug takes damage from the Flaming Sphere. Noxias rolls 2 modified to 7 points of fire damage, slaying the thug.
Fate of the Void: Konstansz gains a +1 bonus to any single d20 roll on her next turn.


PC Results Summary
Konstansz is shadow walking.
Konstansz sees the Fate of the Void.

Marc is normal.

Noxias is sustaining a Flaming Sphere (daily).

Rogur has expended 7 crossbow bolts and 18 sling bullets.
Rogur is moving with Fleeting Ghost and trying to hide from enemies.
Rogur has spent 1 healing surge.

Yrisz has used a sun rod and 2 healing potions.
Yrisz has spent 1 healing surge.

Zephyr has used his length of rope and a sun rod.
Zephyr has cast Acid Orb.
Zephyr has expended Arcane Prodigy.
Zephyr is using non-lethal attacks.

Enemy Negative Effects Summary
Matchless Gang Thug #1 is dead.

Enemy Damage Summary
Matchless Gang Thug #1 - slain by 37 points of damage

[Palpatim]

I'm assuming that Noxias' next turn will take the flaming sphere further into the downstairs area. If that is not the case, then Rogur will delay until the very bottom of the initiative count, essentially foregoing his actions for Round 2, so he can end up at the top of the Round 3 initiative count. Umiushi, please let me know if you would prefer not to allow this.

Otherwise, if the flaming sphere has moved at least 2 S from its current position, Rogur's turn will be to move downstairs. He remembers from his last visit that the pillar on the stair, as well as those on the eastern wall of the corridor, were insubstantial, so he's going to use that to his advantage and hope the Matchless Gang folks haven't discovered that little item:

Rogur, Round 3
Free: Reload sling
Move: E, N, N, E, S, W to enter pillar (Fleeting Ghost). Rogur will be more than happy to use a pillar to do some tricksy stabbing damage if he's able to enter a pillar unseen and get adjacent to an enemy.
Minor: None
Standard: Sly Flourish on an enemy, using Combat Advantage granted by stealth. In order of targeting preference, Rogur will pick: 1) The enemy who looks closest to death (that is, the one that in his player's estimation, has the fewest remaining hit points, either by virtue of being weak, or by being damaged); 2) If he's unable to resolve a target that way, pick the one that has the least available cover from Rogur's attack; 3) If that doesn't work, pick the closest enemy.

Since so much of this is conditional, I'll refrain from any rolls for this turn.

--T

[Umiushi]

I'm gratified that you remembered about the pillars on the second level, but while it may not be completely obvious from the map, your revised movement places you in the room with the teleportation circle, and separated from the staircase by a wall. Is that correct?

(Edit - In case I didn't misunderstand the original message the first time, the original post here concerned Rogur's movement and potentially falling into the illusionary pillar down to the lower floor.)

[Palpatim]

Ah, thank you for pointing out the imminent drop--I misread the map and the location of the stairway entrance. Rogur still wishes to end up in the pillar. Is this an allowable move? E, E, N, N, W, S ? If not, is the distance between the floor we're on and the landing where the pillar sits less than or equal to 10 feet? If so, Rogur will use acrobatics to Hop Down, for a revised move action of: E, N (Hop Down). If neither one of those work, then Rogur will use the "pillar" as cover to proceed down the staircase as far as possible until he's able to target an enemy, as above.

[Umiushi]

Now that I see your response, presumably to my message before I edited it, I'm wondering if I misunderstood your original post or not. Was the original E, N, N, E, S, W move after he takes his 3xE move or in place of it? If it's after, then did you mean he's delaying his round 3 action to move at the top of round 4? If it's in place of it, he's going to try to pass through the square (and non-illusory) pillar inside the room with the teleportation circle?

If it's after his round 2 turn (so at the top of round 4) then yes, with his revised move, he could take a "hop down" action with an Acrobatics Check. This will not affect Rogur's Stealth Check.