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Thread: Speeding up the oWOD combat

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    Speeding up the oWOD combat

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    Crazy simple idea...

    use the nWOD potential damage system instead
    strength+melee or brawl+weapon damage vs TN
    dexterity+firearms or athletics+weapon damage vs TN

    and move resistance rolls to
    stamina+dodge or melee or brawl+ armor vs TN

    this makes it a single opposed roll... I should have thought of that YEARS ago... any problems or ideas to improve it post em!
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    I have a hard time remembering what the original of oWoD combat rolls was. I know I was running a few oWoD games, I should feel ashamed

    What do you mean by "TN" ?

    What does your solution offer that improves on both oWoD and nWoD ?
    Au gibet noir, manchot aimable, dansent, dansent les paladins
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    Quote Originally Posted by boulet View Post
    I have a hard time remembering what the original of oWoD combat rolls was. I know I was running a few oWoD games, I should feel ashamed

    What do you mean by "TN" ?

    What does your solution offer that improves on both oWoD and nWoD ?
    TN is target number.
    oWOD was roll dex+skill to hit then if you hit roll str+weapon for damage or just weapon for range. Revised I believe modded this to take extra success from the to hit and add them to the damage roll. Then the defened CAN roll dex+dodge or parry to negate the to hit roll, either way they still get a soak roll for the damage.

    I don't know that it is an improvement on nWOD, other than oWOD not having any combat merits to alter the rules. Which you could easily just not use combat merits in nWOD. It is faster than the oWOD combat system which is frankly the only thing that irritated me in the old system other than some particular powers (mechanically speaking). oWOD was a good system 90% of the time but combat is still very 90s and not up to todays fast play RPGs.
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    I stated my feelings about weapon damage adding to "to hit" die pools in the sister thread.

    I like the TN idea for defense, but I wouldn't combine "attack dice" and "damage dice" into the same die pool. To me, it just encourages players to carry around the biggest damage-dealing weapon, because not only will they dish out a lot of pain, they'll hit more often to boot. I'm not a fan of that idea...it outs the "stylish knife-fighter" in favor of the guy who carries the 6-damage die, 30-pound, FF7-style monster sword. YMMV.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    I stated my feelings about weapon damage adding to "to hit" die pools in the sister thread.

    I like the TN idea for defense, but I wouldn't combine "attack dice" and "damage dice" into the same die pool. To me, it just encourages players to carry around the biggest damage-dealing weapon, because not only will they dish out a lot of pain, they'll hit more often to boot. I'm not a fan of that idea...it outs the "stylish knife-fighter" in favor of the guy who carries the 6-damage die, 30-pound, FF7-style monster sword. YMMV.
    You raised a good point in the other thread, I could make weapon damage and armor static still need to "fix" multiple action crazy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MortonStromgal View Post
    You raised a good point in the other thread, I could make weapon damage and armor static still need to "fix" multiple action crazy.
    I never liked the "splitting dice pools" concept of multiple actions. They were never very clear to me. I really liked the oWoD Revised rules that had you subtract a number of dice from each pool equal to the number of actions you are taking. If you take 2 actions, subtract 2 dice from all die pools. If you take 3 actions, you subtract 3 dice, etc. Very simple while also reigning in the "do it all at once" players.

    By what I recall reading from nWoD, it looks like they took out multiple actions...as in, you can't take multiple actions. I don't like that idea either. It's a staple of WoD to be driving a car with one hand while shooting over your shoulder with the other. Still, it would be easy to house rule the oWoD rules, if one is so inclined.
    HARRY DRESDEN WIZARD
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    I agree that multiple actions is a critical part in tweaking this combat system. Especially if you consider celerity to bring extra actions like oWoD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    By what I recall reading from nWoD, it looks like they took out multiple actions...as in, you can't take multiple actions. I don't like that idea either. It's a staple of WoD to be driving a car with one hand while shooting over your shoulder with the other. Still, it would be easy to house rule the oWoD rules, if one is so inclined.
    multiple actions are still there in nWOD, they just do it through combat merits. The combat merits take an otherwise simple game and add exceptions. You can still drive and shoot to but IIRC theres no penalty you just cant fire your gun twice without combat merits.

    Quote Originally Posted by boulet View Post
    I agree that multiple actions is a critical part in tweaking this combat system. Especially if you consider celerity to bring extra actions like oWoD.
    Celerity now lets you dodge bullets as without celerity you defense is negated (other than armor) it does not let you go multiple times.

    Its more fun for all in my experience with the new celerity. However combat merits flubbed it up, they seam to go against the core design of simplifying the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    I never liked the "splitting dice pools" concept of multiple actions. They were never very clear to me. I really liked the oWoD Revised rules that had you subtract a number of dice from each pool equal to the number of actions you are taking. If you take 2 actions, subtract 2 dice from all die pools. If you take 3 actions, you subtract 3 dice, etc. Very simple while also reigning in the "do it all at once" players.
    The thing I didn't like about any of their multiple action systems was you had to declare it before hand. I like to be able to notice and try to avoid attacks I didn't see before hand. Unisystem IIRC handles this nicely.
    Last edited by MortonStromgal; 11-03-2008 at 11:49 AM.
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    So here is what I decided to go with so far

    Damage is fixed at normal damage dice pool / 2
    You can then add successes from the to hit roll as damage.

    Dodge/Parry stays the same

    Soak, not sure if I want to go static on this or not.

    I personally will be using Perception+Skill for range and Dex+Skill for melee because I always loved the idea of Perception for Firearms (not sure where I first heard of it)

    Not sure how to handle multiple actions yet, but I do like Revised better than 2nd in that regard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MortonStromgal View Post
    ...The thing I didn't like about any of their multiple action systems was you had to declare it before hand. I like to be able to notice and try to avoid attacks I didn't see before hand. Unisystem IIRC handles this nicely.
    True. Star Wars D6 I think struck the right balance in this regard (and, incidentally, I ended up adapting the concept into Unisystem and WoD as well). In Star Wars D6, you had to declare any offensive multiple actions beforehand, but you could always take defensive actions at any time if necessary at an increasing penalty.

    So, using oWoD Revised system, let's say you declare 2 actions in a round. That would be -2 dice to all die pools. An enemy attacks you and you wish to defend. You can take a 3rd action at a penalty of -3 dice. If you defend again later that round, the penalty increases to -4 dice, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MortonStromgal View Post
    So here is what I decided to go with so far

    I personally will be using Perception+Skill for range and Dex+Skill for melee because I always loved the idea of Perception for Firearms (not sure where I first heard of it)
    Just to add on this one: How about Dex with a max level = to perception. The ability to aim the weapon is more hand-eye coordination, but can't hit what you can't see (excluding automatic weapons & liberal use of bullets of course) and equally it doesn't matter if you can see a gnat at a mile if you can't hold a toothpick straight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    True. Star Wars D6 I think struck the right balance in this regard (and, incidentally, I ended up adapting the concept into Unisystem and WoD as well). In Star Wars D6, you had to declare any offensive multiple actions beforehand, but you could always take defensive actions at any time if necessary at an increasing penalty.

    So, using oWoD Revised system, let's say you declare 2 actions in a round. That would be -2 dice to all die pools. An enemy attacks you and you wish to defend. You can take a 3rd action at a penalty of -3 dice. If you defend again later that round, the penalty increases to -4 dice, etc.
    At first I thought this idea sucked, I mean its easier to take multiple actions than normal as per revised if you were taking 3 actions total it would be -3, -4, -5 and now you would have potentially -0 (declared attack), -2 (defense), -3 (defense). However after thinking about this its a great idea because celerity is so overpowered anyway that this would sorta level that playing field a bit, I think... could be wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by praksis View Post
    Just to add on this one: How about Dex with a max level = to perception. The ability to aim the weapon is more hand-eye coordination, but can't hit what you can't see (excluding automatic weapons & liberal use of bullets of course) and equally it doesn't matter if you can see a gnat at a mile if you can't hold a toothpick straight.
    I can certainly see the point but if I'm going to use dex it would just be dex. No need to complicate things. Really the Firearms skill handles all of that its just I've always found shooting at the range a more mental than physical test and I just like the idea of perception and range combat. Not saying its better or more correct than dex, I just personally like it better. I would also think in a gun fight after the first shot perceiving the enemy is more key than turning your gun on him fast as your really not having a whole lot of time to aim. Maybe I'm completely outta whack though as I've never been in a gun fight and I only know what movies tell me.


    I guess at some level to it would be nice if the fighter types could not be all physical. I really like how nWOD had defense as the lower of dex or wits. I suppose the nWOD defense is inline with your suggestion of the attack though. I guess lower of isn't so bad. Certainly makes sense when defending.
    Last edited by MortonStromgal; 11-03-2008 at 03:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MortonStromgal View Post
    At first I thought this idea sucked, I mean its easier to take multiple actions than normal as per revised if you were taking 3 actions total it would be -3, -4, -5 and now you would have potentially -0 (declared attack), -2 (defense), -3 (defense). However after thinking about this its a great idea because celerity is so overpowered anyway that this would sorta level that playing field a bit, I think... could be wrong...
    I like the system a lot. As I mentioned, I ended up porting it into Unisystem because none of the other options completely satisfied me. It prevents the problem of having to predict how many attacks to defend against (and possibly wasting actions). At the same time, the front-loaded penalties keep players from getting too greedy with their non-defensive actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by MortonStromgal View Post
    I can certainly see the point but if I'm going to use dex it would just be dex. No need to complicate things. Really the Firearms skill handles all of that its just I've always found shooting at the range a more mental than physical test and I just like the idea of perception and range combat. Not saying its better or more correct than dex, I just personally like it better. I would also think in a gun fight after the first shot perceiving the enemy is more key than turning your gun on him fast as your really not having a whole lot of time to aim. Maybe I'm completely outta whack though as I've never been in a gun fight and I only know what movies tell me.
    On a related note, I always liked that oWoD used Dex + Wits for Initiative. It's about how quickly your mind can recognize and react to danger and how quickly your body can follow suit.

    Also, I recall rules (but I forget what book they come from) for oWoD about aiming with firearms which did something like what you're saying. As I recall, it went like so:

    Every round you spend aiming a ranged weapon, you can add 1 die to your die pool for the next shot you make against your target. The maximum number of bonus dice you can gain from aiming is equal to your Perception score.
    There is also the Unisystem rules for aiming that you might want to adopt:

    If you spend a round aiming a ranged weapon, roll Perception + weapon skill. Each Success Level on this roll adds +1 to your next attack roll against the target.
    Hope those give some ideas.
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    Unisystem for the win! that is about on (and makes aiming worth it) though my mind still wants to say dex is more important for aiming and perception is more important from the hip my sense of reality must be off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    On a related note, I always liked that oWoD used Dex + Wits for Initiative.
    You mean nWOD?(I think nWOD is wits+composure) oWOD was wits+alertness at leased in every edition I remember VtM 2, VtM Revised, DA.
    Last edited by MortonStromgal; 11-03-2008 at 06:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MortonStromgal View Post
    ...You mean nWOD?(I think nWOD is wits+composure) oWOD was wits+alertness at leased in every edition I remember VtM 2, VtM Revised, DA.
    Nope. oWoD 2e Revised (at least in Revised Vampire and Mage). Original 2e was Wits + Alertness, rolled just like any other test, collecting successes. Revised 2e was different. You rolled 1d10 and added your dots in Dex + Wits to the total. That was your initiative roll. Even though it was a slightly different system, it was easier and faster to use and track than the old way to me, so I grew to like it.

    Example:

    My PC has Dex 2 and Wits 3. When it is time to roll initiative, I roll a d10 and get "7". I add 2 from Dex and 3 from my Wits and I get "12" (7 + 2 + 3). Thus, my initiative number is "12".
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