Polearm Cleric or Paladin of Abadar?

[Tibrand]

Hello i would like some advice for a 25 pts build to be played in the Kingmaker-campaign. We only use pathfinder core books like rulebook and players guide.

I am the worse character builder ever. I know what "feeling/concept" of a character to have but not how to build it.

I know this:

* The miniature for the character is this one: http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStor...tail/03372_w_2

*Yeah the minis and the character is a human

* I want to be badass with a glaive/halberd/polearm-thing

*The paladin or cleric will worship Abadar

*I want the character to be opted for melee-combat (no healing slave)

*Rec traits? Both flavour and opting-traits is welcome, iv already taken the kingmaker noble one och i have one "trait slot" left.

---
Feats iv thought of:
Power attack, cleave, weapon focus, toughness, leadership
if cleric
selective channeling, combat casting

skills
know. religion (for obvious reasons)
know. nobility (for flavour)

Diplomacy would be pretty stupid for me to take as another character in the group is focusing on it. So iv thought of sence motive or by traits gain an extra class skill: perception, appraise, acrobatics if possible.

So i havent played so much d20 before. What class do you think will give me as much fun as possible in combat? Right now cleric seams the best as it will give me travel domain. But i dont know if gaining alot of spells is worth loosing al the paladin stuff.

By your excellent experience in the game would you have chosen paladin or cleric if you wanted to be a human polearm warrior fighting for Abadar?

[rabkala]

Actually if you want a polearm weilding badass, Barbarian or fighter sound better. Lion Totem barbarian Variant for pounce and just go nuts with ridiculous damage from charge/jump attack/battle jump. Power Attack is always good, maybe Short haft (lets you switch it from a reach to a 5 foot weapon with a swift action). Not sure what works with a pure pathfinder build though.

With choice between paly and cleric, go with paly for melee-combat. Great halberd over glaive, with exotic weapon proficiency. There are better pole arms, but again not sure what works best for a pure pathfinder build.

Not sure if I'm helping, you are a little squishy on the initial setup.

[Dolanar]

I think Rab has a point to some extent, I love the Lancer Ideal, or if you MUST be a religious, you could Multiclass Paladin/Fighter for Extra feats, but the Barbarian does have several distinct advantages as well.

[Tibrand]

Thank you for the advice. Perhaps Paladin (or a paladin/fighter combo) is the best choice for me.

What do you think about my suggested starting stats? 25 point buy

STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
16* 13 15 10 10 16

*= +2 after human racial bonus.
At level 4/8/12/16/20 i am thinking about always increasing STR.

About feats, what do you think about power attack - cleave - grt cleave? And the other feats iv mentioned. Vital strike, improved disarm and weapon focus seams very neat aswell.

When it comes to multiclassing how would you suggest the level progression there? Perhaps for every third level i take one level of fighter.

EDIT: oh i forgott, is great halberd really worth the exotic prof. feat?

[Dolanar]

The stats seem fine, your biggest choice is to decide what your ultimate goal is with the character, & from there work backwards & see what you need in terms of feats & other skills, as far as multiclassing, I would suggest basing that on how many extra feats you need to make the build work. Power Attack & Weapon Focus are great options, & if you take Fighter to level 4 you will have access to the Weapons Specialization feat.

[Tibrand]

Banapis Lebeda
Male Human Paladin 20 | [Lawful Good]

STRENGTH
20 (+5)
HIT POINTS
HP 200
Current HP

DEXTERITY
10 (+0)
CONSTITUTION
14 (+2)
INTELLIGENCE
10 (+0)
WISDOM
10 (+0)
CHARISMA
19 (+4)

Initiative +0 = +0 [Dex]
Action Points (Lifetime) 24

K (Nobility)† +23 = INT 0+20+3
K (Religion)† +23 = INT 0+20+3

Sense Motive +23 = WIS 0+20+3


AC [18] = 10 + 8 [Half-plate]
Touch AC [10] Flat-Footed [18]

BASE ATTACK BONUS
+20
Basic Melee Attack +25
Basic Ranged Attack +20


FORTITUDE SAVE
+14 = 12 [base] +2 [Con]
REFLEX SAVE
+6 = 6 [base] +0 [Dex]
WILL SAVE
+12 = 12 [base] +0 [Wis]

CMB
+25 = 20 [BAB] +5 [Str] +0 [size]
CMD
+35 = 20 [BAB] +5 [Str] +0 [Dex] +0 [size] + 10
FEATS
Critical Focus
Staggering Critical
Stunning Critical
Extra Lay On Hands
Improved Critical
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Toughness
Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Focus





EXPERIENCE POINTS
0

[Dolanar]

If that is your ultimate goal, then you should be fine, if you decide that you don't need any extra feats to improve your build.

[rabkala]

You have a relatively solid build. (from what I see)

Optimization is about a goal, like a child dreaming of what they want to become as an adult. Everyone hears stories of the ultimate rock star and the incredible feats that he can perform while onstage. Sometimes things happen and even the best laid schemes of mice and men often go awry. It is about deciding if you want to be an untouchable tank or an offensive juggernaut, etc. and striving toward that goal, (even though things may not always fall into place). Those that cry that optimization is somehow against characterization, must be fools who simply drift along with life with no ambitions or goals.

is great halberd really worth the exotic prof. feat?
No, only if you are looking for more damage potential.

what do you think about power attack - cleave - grt cleave? And the other feats iv mentioned. Vital strike, improved disarm and weapon focus seams very neat aswell.
Power attack, cleave and great cleave are always good. Weapon focus never hurts. I am not a fan of improved disarm (unless you would plan on being a different kind of build like a spiked chain wielding skill monkey).Toughness is not an optimal choice and i would not take it under most circumstances. I don't remember vital strike off the top of my head, nor any of the Critical feats you mention. I am more master of WoTC 3.5 and just learning of Pathfinder, hence that may be an issue.
.


When it comes to multi-classing how would you suggest the level progression there?
Go as far as possible with one class before switching (especially with a restrictive class like paladin). So if you need fighter levels, do that before becoming a paladin .

[Dolanar]

I am not sure about the critical feats either, they are a new addition to Pathfinder. As Rab said, the Trip/Disarms are very specific builds, with a whole different line of feats meant to support them.

Upon further research it seems that the Critical Focus Feat gives a +4 to the confirmation roll when you roll a "threat" of Critical hit, the Stunning/Staggering Criticals add that status to an enemy who you succeed on the critical roll against the opponent. & Toughness has changed in Pathfinder as well which makes it more appealing, it basically adds your level to your HP instead of the Flat +3 that 3.5 had.

As a matter of personal opinion, I am not fond of putting in feats that require me to hit a 19-20 on a roll to be used, I prefer feats that can be used more often. but as I said, that is a matter of opinion. As far as possible multiclassing, I suggest a 1:1 until you have the extra feats you need for any specific build, then continue on with your Paladin levels, or use Rab's idea of Fighter then finish of with Paladin.

[Tibrand]

hmm i think my "role" will be tank together with a dude who is playing fighter. For polearm weapons iv seen that alot of them has "reach" - is it any good to take advantage for reach when acting like a tank?

I am also thinking of either a triping, disarm, bull rush or cleave focus and how does that kind of tactical attacks fit with reach?

[Dolanar]

Tripping, is best done with other weapons, As far as "Tanking" with a reach weapon, Reach will give you increased range for Attacks of Opportunity, the more AOO's you get before the enemy reaches your party, the more damage overall done not on your combat round. Granted with a 10 dexterity you will only ever really have one AOO/round.

[rabkala]

Random thoughts and why I think that way...

If you don't maximize damage potential and threat range, the critical feats and cleave type feats can be a huge let down. Two handed weapons give strength bonus x 1 1/2. Weapons with increased threat range or increased critical multiplier should be utilized. Increased size or weapon size (with feats like monkey grip) could help up damage potential. Adding a little precision damage could up damage potential (thief sneak attack, swashbuckler precise damage, or scout/ninja skirmish). A paladin may not be a good choice for precision damage, so you may be better off with shock trooper or magical help like elemental damage.

I think I see the problem now, you are trying to pick all the great things off the ale carte menu at the cafeteria. You don't end up with a great cohesive gourmet meal. True tank builds are generally more meat shields who hold the enemy while support characters finish them. Tanks can do good damage, but are somewhat limited and defensive. Glass cannons are the ones who generally do crazy damage with the idea that 'a good offense is the best defense.' That was what I thought you were seeking originally. Then you threw a big curve ball with things like trip and disarm.

Paladins have a lot of area to cover and they suffer from Multiple Attribute Dependence. You really need Strength as a melee character for damage and hitting. Constitution is a must as a tank who is going to have to survive large amounts of punishment. Charisma is for turning, smiting, skills and prestige classing. Wisdom is for casting and many of your key skills (didn't they change this for pathfinder into charisma, perhaps that will give some room to drop wis to the bottom). Intelligence is hard to go without because of your low skills and requirement for many feat areas, but less desirable than the first four. Dexterity is the only area you can really use as a dump because of your heavy armor dependence and melee focus. With your low stat array, a paladin will be hard. Trying to go into areas that require dexterity can completely destroy your character.


The critical feats are seldom used and very difficult to maximize. The whole cleave chain is tricky with a tank. You haven't the fighter's feat versatility or barbarian's attack power, you are more of a defensive character.



With a typical reach weapon you can strike foes 10' away, but you can't strike adjacent foes 5' away (Which can be a problem for a movement challenged tank). Chain spear and guisarme have reach and are tripping weapons. If you want reach, disarm, and trip; the whip fits the bill (but has pathetic damage which is non lethal). The problem, a paladin is far better with greatsword or sword and shield. When you start going into reach weapons, tripping and disarming; you open up huge areas that are very hard to achieve as a paladin and best left to others.

Reach, trip, and disarm are not the best choices for a paladin tank.
This would be a great trip master feat selection chain: EWP (Chain), Combat Expertise, Imp. Trip, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, TWF, Imp. TWF, Dodge, Karmic Strike, Mobility, Side Step, Double Hit, Greater TWF, Deft Opportunist, Spring Attack, Knock-Down, Power Attack, and Hold The Line. It does not scream paladin tank. Reach and disarming builds show a similar story.


Bullrush is a possibility. Smiting power might help that build. It allows you to channel smite attacks into bullrush and overrun attempts (from Champions of Valor). You might see a little success, but this shouldn't be your bread and butter and isn't optimal.


Good paladin feats to look at (depending on allowed sources) : Power Attack (PHB), Awesome Smite (CC), Leadership (PHB), Goad (CV), Sword of the Arcane Order (CoV), Battle Blessing (CC), Improved Sunder (PHB), Martial Study/Stance (ToB), Divine Might (CW), Divine Shield (CW), Divine Vigor (CW), Sacred Healing (CD), Sacred Vitality (Libris Mortis), Nymph's Kiss (BoED)


Depending on your build and where you are spending much of your time, you may want to look at some of the variant paladin classes. The spell-less Paladin is far weaker than the original, but maybe okay in some cases (like if you plan on cross classing which will destroy spell progression). In example, I have seen the paladins special mount as a complete waste for many. In some adventures it can be great with a lot of overland/outdoor adventuring and there are good feats to look into for mounts and mounted combat.

Skills can be tricky as well. In a current game, one of my players is a paladin. Very simple skill checks (like DC 5 climb or swim) will completely keep him from being useful. K (Religion), Diplomacy, Sense Motive are good; but maybe not completely invested. A little K (Nobility) is okay and ride/handle animal only if you plan on going that route.

Of course if I'm not being helpful, I'll shut up. My limited pathfinder knowledge and knowledge of allowable source material might be a hindrance. Just give me a yell.

[Tibrand]

hmm i think your tips was very good, im kind of the worst character builder ever so every new knowledge for me is usefull.

The group im playing with is this and we al start at level one. = (what they plan to focus on):
1 rogue/wizard (arcane trickster build), 1 Wizard (summoning monsters), 1 fighter (two weapon fighting), 1 ranger (archery)

First i wanted to play a bard but i gave up that idea for a divine character as i find it most needed? Perhaps im wrong, i dont know but on the paper a bard sound kinda odd in this group as the bard wont have an "defined role".

The paladin/cleric mini im using has a polearm (link at the first post) and thats why i was thinking of it. Perhaps its vain but i want the mini to represent the character build. (next time il build first then buy mini) Perhaps cavalier would be a good choice but i dont want to be dependent on riding in battle.

If you would make a strong polearm build what feats do you see as "essential"? The only material im allowed to used is the "canon" material from pathfinder (players guide and core rulebook) so its kind of everything that i can find here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

I dont know if a super-tank is needed either as we have a fighter in the party and the wizards "minions" should work as a fine meat shield. Perhaps im overrating the minions thou. :P

---------- Post added at 01:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 AM ----------

Power Attack is always good, maybe Short haft (lets you switch it from a reach to a 5 foot weapon with a swift action). .

Iv never heard of short haft in the rulebook. Its sound lovely but i cant find any info on it in the equipment-section.

---------- Post added at 01:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 AM ----------

Also as a side note: im going OOT in my own thread here but: I also have a kukri-monk mini. I have no idea on how to build one but would it fit into the group? Or would the monk be worse than a bard or a paladin?

[rabkala]

No, short haft wouldn't be cannon PF. I was afraid of that, pure cannon pathfinder could be a hard nut to crack. The tw fighter and the ranger/archer are soft fighters, but with the adition of minions should fill the gap. From the make up of your party, cleric does sound as a needed role. Is Abadar's favored weapon a polearm-thingy? That would help! Bards can be great fun to play, but are secondary support. Monks are good, but not really what your party needs. Cleric sounds the way to go now.
I could help research a bit...

[Dolanar]

Hmmmm....I will put together an Ideal Polearm build (My Opinion) & level Progressions that incorporate a Healing scope on the Polearm Warrior for ya, let you take a look & see what you think