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Force Grip Issues
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Thread: Force Grip Issues

  1. #1
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    Force Grip Issues

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    Force Grip
    You use the Force to choke or crush your enemy. Time: Standard action.
    Target: One target within 6 squares or within line of sight.
    Make a Use the Force check. The result of the check determines the
    effect, if any:
    DC 15: If your Use the Force check equals or exceeds the targetís
    damage threshold, the target takes 2d6 points of damage and can only take
    a single swift action on his next turn. Otherwise, the target takes half
    damage and may act normally, and you may not maintain the power.
    DC 20: As DC 15, except the target takes 4d6 points of damage.
    DC 25: As DC 15, except target takes 6d6 points of damage.

    I am running into serious issues with this power in my game. First off the force users that I have in the group have very high use force skills, 14 -16 (feats and high charisma). Most opponents at this level have a threshold or fortitude score of 16-22. The rolls are in huge favor of the force gripper. I wouldnít mind this if the power wasnít so easy to sustain but the opponent can only use a swift action; they are more or less dead unless they have an ally that can distract the gripper.

    Iíd prefer not to have some random person just distract the user.

    What recourse do I have other then to nerf the power?

  2. #2
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    Switch it to the Dark Side.

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    Switch it to dark side or be liberal in handing out dark side points for maintaining the power. Just because it doesn't say its a dark side power doesn't mean Jedi can use it willy-nilly to kill whomever they wish, that is still against the jedi code of using the Force to kill.

    Or, hopefully, whoever they are choking to death has friends who should be auto-firing the Jedi maintaining the power.

    There is no reason to nerf the power, its strong but the drawbacks of overuse are falling to the dark side.

    OR, do what the RCR did and incorporate the rule that if used against organic beings it grants a DSP.
    "I'm afraid it is you who are mistaken. About a great, many things."

    "It is not the rules that make or break a game, it's the GM and the players."


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    That doesn't help when the character is already a dark side character. I ment to put that in my original post but got side tracked doing other things.
    Last edited by A Flannel Shirt; 01-16-2010 at 01:18 PM.

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    Force Grip is in my opinion badly marked in the book. It is a very dark side power, more so then Force Lightning. Force Grip happens to be only good for killing someone, and so would not be a power any Jedi character would ever take.

    Force powers and Force Users are really powerful in Saga Edition but with one major drawback/flaw: Ysamiri(SP?). If you throw them against opponents carrying those no-force bubble making creatures then they won't be able to use their force powers.

    Another solution would be to (if you are playing then) have them fight Vong, since Force Powers can't affect them.

    I would not worry to much. To keep Force Gripping someone, the player has keep focused and so is not able to do anything else really. That makes them vulnerable especially if they get attacked by a melee weapon enemy.

    I would suggest including melee using enemies to make things more interesting. getting hacked on by another person while trying to Force Grip one will make the player have to think hard about whether they really want to do it.

    Remember, Darth Vader Force Gripped people to death so its a cool thing to do.

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    I appreciate the input.

    In my little game there are no Vong, I canít stand the new jedi order books.

    As for Ysilamari Iíve always thought of them as cheesy. The main draw back is the people that are getting choked are also force users. Using Ysilamari will negate some of their abilities and some of the other players NOT using grip. So then it looks like rebuke is the best way to go.

    The most annoying part of this is when the gripper is all alone against the BBEG. There is a big chance the fight will be short due to a 1v1 battle and force grip.

    It seems like these are the only options:

    1. Ysilamari for non force using BBEG.
    Cheesy
    2. Constant enemies so the 1v1 battle never happens.
    Cheesy
    3. Rebuke for the Jedi (er force users) and pray for a higher roll.
    Praying to God
    4. Nerf the skill
    Cheesy

    Which cheese would you prefer?

    lol

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    You seem okay with the whole Dark Side bit in a supposed hero, so the opposition has to get smarter: numbers, tactics, droids. If there's a chance at an emotional angle, lean on it (think Vader's redemption).

    Or, y'know, talk to the player and tell 'em flat out that constant use of the power is making the game less fun. If they're agreeable to easing back on the throttle or changing the mechanics, problem solved. Really, this shoulda been my first response, heh; ah, well.

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    The first time I read the power, I thought there had been a typo and they forgot to add "Dark Side" to the power's description. That was one of the first things I house-ruled in Saga Edition.
    HARRY DRESDEN ó WIZARD
    Lost items found. Paranormal Investigations.
    Consulting. Advice. Reasonable Rates.
    No Love Potions, Endless Purses, or Other Entertainment.

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    If the character is already dark side and they are using it against other dark siders then make sure your NPCs have Rebuke. And once your PCs power has been rebuked, make sure that the opponents then Force Grip the PCs. Its no fun when your PC has been force gripped and then shot to death by the opponents mooks.

    Force Grip doesn't get abused in my games. In fact the Jedi (of which there are 3, 2 PCs and a GMPC) in my game are consistently challenged because I create encounters that aren't easy for Jedi to "win" by a simple FG check. Saga is much more about using the battlefield to one's advantage, with or without minis.

    On the flip side, in the campaign (dawn of defiance) where I play a bad *ss lightsaber focused Jedi I make sure to consistently get into position(s) that are favorable for my character and it upsets the GM to no end. That and the Force Wizard in the group is uber with his UtF checks and FGs all the time. He also gladly accepts any DSPs the GM hands out for his behavior.

    Plus playing a tactical game against a Jedi or the players in general is not GM vs. PCs. If bad guys are using tactics that are not working why wouldn't they switch tactics? It just makes logical sense that they would adapt to the situation as needed. So do not be afraid to out-think your players. Don't abuse it either. I consider the PCs constantly loosing or taking heavy looses as abuse. The heroes SHOULD be heroes so let them. Sometimes make it difficult for them sometimes make it easy for them.

    Sorry for the side track.

    But no, I dont think Force Grip should inherently be Dark Side, yes it is powerful but that is what makes a Jedi, knowing when to use their power and when enough is enough.

    Running a Dark Side game though, what else would you expect? If the dark side PCs aren't using Force Grip then they will switch to Force Lightning and when they do you will swear Force Lightning needs to be nerfed too!

    Its the number one reason I will never ever run a dark side game. I encourage my players to flirt with the dark side as much as possible to explore the roleplaying applications but once you fall your character is MINE!
    "I'm afraid it is you who are mistaken. About a great, many things."

    "It is not the rules that make or break a game, it's the GM and the players."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Inquisitor Tremayne View Post

    On the flip side, in the campaign (dawn of defiance) where I play a bad *ss lightsaber focused Jedi I make sure to consistently get into position(s) that are favorable for my character and it upsets the GM to no end. That and the Force Wizard in the group is uber with his UtF checks and FGs all the time. He also gladly accepts any DSPs the GM hands out for his behavior.
    Could you elaborate on your "getting in position?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Inquisitor Tremayne View Post
    Running a Dark Side game though, what else would you expect? If the dark side PCs aren't using Force Grip then they will switch to Force Lightning and when they do you will swear Force Lightning needs to be nerfed too!
    The problem with grip is the ease at which it continues and the lack of response the gripper gets.

    Would you want to nerf force lightning is that easily sustainable?

    1 vs. 1 combat:

    Force Lightning is vs reflex:
    "If the attack hits, the target takes 8d6 points of Force damage and moves Ė1 step along the condition track, if the attack misses, the target takes half damage and does not move along the condition track."

    You are looking at a minimum of 4d6 damage for only one time.
    What happens to the opponent next turn? He strikes back.

    Grip vs. Threshold (which is usually going to be lower then reflex defense)
    Letís just use the middle one here.
    DC 20: As DC 15, except the target takes 4d6 points of damage.
    What happens to the opponent next turn? He umm, ahhh, umm, ohhh, ahhh, switches the firing mode on his weapon then gets gripped again next turn. Rinse and repeat.

    So you are looking at a skill that does 4d6 (average) damage a turn that really canít be stopped unless the gripper has a low roll.

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    Something that was done to me with my Star Wars bouts on the Darkside in WEG d6 and more recenly d20 Star Wars, is the GM would inflict debilitative effects onme as a Darkside user. I would still earn Darkside Points, but for evryone beyond 6 (in the case of WEG d6) or my wisdom score (in the case of d20) I would suffer a negative modifier to my skill checks or suffer a loss to an attribute of 1 or 2 points depending on what was going on. The logic was that the Darkside, while easier, began to demand more and more from the characters, so much so, that eventually, the demands of the darkside began to take a very physical toll on my character.

    I haven't done this to my players, as due to my rather strict (others would say narrow-minded) perspective on the Force and Jedi, my players may skirt the darkside, but never actually give in to it, particularly since I never run "redemption" stories or allow players to have evil "heroes" or those characters that are moraly ambiguous (which equates to evil In my gamers and GMs perspective).

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Flannel Shirt View Post
    [COLOR=black]Could you elaborate on your "getting in position?"
    Surge. Lots and lots of liberal use of surge. I just discovered a "loophole" with surge as well. If you spend a destiny point to enhance surge then you essentially succede on ANY jump check because the destiny point allows you to jump with no jump check needed!!!!

    If my Jedi is across the battlefield she surges and can usually get where she needs to be in 1 round.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Flannel Shirt View Post
    *snip*
    Yeah, I never said Force Grip wasn't powerful it is and it is often an encounter ender and there in lies the key. In a non-dark side game your force user should grip them and then let the encounter end a free the one being gripped. I would have no problem giving a character a DSP for maintaining FG when the gripee is essentially helpless.

    BUT you are running a dark side game so you need to find feats, talents and skills that can use swift actions AND give any opponents that are Force sensitive Rebuke. OR use FG against your PCs FIRST.

    If you were to nerf it what would you do? Less damage?

    MY suggestion, make FG a full-round action. That way the one doing the gripping can only take reactions while doing the gripping. And make it a full-round action to maintain. That is a lot of dedication to a Force Power and would only really be usable once a combat has subsided.
    "I'm afraid it is you who are mistaken. About a great, many things."

    "It is not the rules that make or break a game, it's the GM and the players."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Inquisitor Tremayne View Post
    Surge. Lots and lots of liberal use of surge. I just discovered a "loophole" with surge as well. If you spend a destiny point to enhance surge then you essentially succede on ANY jump check because the destiny point allows you to jump with no jump check needed!!!!
    I can't seem to find that rule.

    I found this on wizards:
    1) When using Surge, do not double the DC of jump checks for not running.

    2) Added to text: Special: May spend a Force point to add +10 to jump checks and 2sq to speed. May spend a Destiny point to use your total speed for the round as jumping distance. (No check required)
    I see the part about no check required, but total speed is your jumping distance?

    Is this right?

    12 squares = med creature speed at 6 squares + 6 for surge without a roll?

    Also, if you were in melee with someone and you surged over the enemy would that provoke an attack of opportunity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Inquisitor Tremayne View Post
    If you were to nerf it what would you do? Less damage?
    We are going to try a cumulative -3 on each roll after the first. We have other options but that is going to be the first one we try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Flannel Shirt View Post
    I can't seem to find that rule.

    I found this on wizards:


    I see the part about no check required, but total speed is your jumping distance?

    Is this right?
    That is correct. PLUS your jumping distance is your TOTAL speed for the encounter! So...

    Quote Originally Posted by A Flannel Shirt View Post
    12 squares = med creature speed at 6 squares + 6 for surge without a roll?
    Actually no. Your surge skill check, if maxed, gives you 6 extra squares of movement, spending a DP while doing so adds an ADDITIONAL +2 squares for a total of 8 extra squares of movement, giving you a total of 14 squares of movement, PER MOVE ACTION, or 28 squares of movement as a full-round action!!

    AND you may jump at any point during those 28 squares that you are moving for freeeeeeeee! No Check required means you can jump however the heck high you want! I just realized this 2 weeks ago! I have fallen in love with surge all over again!

    Quote Originally Posted by A Flannel Shirt View Post
    Also, if you were in melee with someone and you surged over the enemy would that provoke an attack of opportunity?
    If you were jumping through their threatened squares yes, you would provoke an AoO. However there may be something you can do with Acrobatics to get around that. Im not that familiar with the Tumble rules.



    Quote Originally Posted by A Flannel Shirt View Post
    We are going to try a cumulative -3 on each roll after the first. We have other options but that is going to be the first one we try.
    Just a nitpick, I would stick with the normal Saga bonus and penalties convention of +/-1, +/-2, +/-5, +/-10. And I think in the case of Force Grip a cumulative -5 would me reasonable.

    HOWEVER, it would severely hamper what we witness FG doing in the movies. I should what we see Vader doing in the movies. He may or may not be able to maintain his FG to kill off his lackeys if he was taking cumulative penalties.
    "I'm afraid it is you who are mistaken. About a great, many things."

    "It is not the rules that make or break a game, it's the GM and the players."


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    Social Response

    Here's the thing.

    If you're a thief, and you steal things, and you get caught, eventually you'll be punished.

    If you're a murderer, same thing.

    Pretty much, if you do anything against society, society will respond appropriately.

    If you force choke someone, you're going to scare Hells out of everyone around you and they'll just start shooting, if they have a blaster. Or you'll get the attention of people more able to handle you, and don't like your competition.

    If the guy's Dark Side anyway, then shouldn't he run into more people appropriately ready to defend against him? How many times did Vader attempt to force choke a Jedi? How many times did Maul? Sidious? Dooku? Yeah. Never happened. See what I'm getting at?

    Persons adept at using The Force should have some natural defense against the choke. That is represented within the game, certainly, with Rebuke. Throw more Force adepts at your dark side character; in fact, give him a taste of his own medicine. Throw some Dark Side adepts at him.

    Let him know he's not the only Sith in the pond. Inquisitor Tremayne has the right idea, there. He's already said what I basically said here.

    And as for it being a Dark Side power only; remember RotJ when Luke used the grip on the Gamorrean guard at Jabba's? He used it just long enough to make "Not Inspired By An Orc, Honest" step aside. Then he released the chump. No loss of life, stayed within Jedi code. Now, had he used it to pick the guard up, choke his life out, and then toss the husk out into the sand, well, that's a DS point, and a stern lecture from the shades of both Kenobi AND Yoda. Likewise, if he'd used a Force push to shove some defenseless people off of a cliff, then that's a DS point too. It's not WHAT the power actually is; it's how it's used, and the intent behind it. Force Grips don't kill people; Sith kill people.

    I like the idea of losing physical attributes and penalties to skill checks; the films stated that the Dark Side consumes its user over time. Sure, while they're using The Force, they're God-like. The rest of the time, they're weakened. When your players start to need to burn Force points just to climb a flight of stairs, they may reconsider their overuse of powers like Force Grip a bit.

    The main problem you face now is that you have established precedent; they've been using it a certain way up to now. Changing the rules mid-game will seem unfair, and it really is. However, throwing tougher opponents against him, able to rebuke his grip, might make him rethink it. And if you use an exponential weakening system (instead of a linear), so that the weakening effects get stronger the more it's used, then you can explain the minor degradation up to now, as well as the sudden increase in weakness later.

    Either that, or kill them off. I don't recommend that, though. Too many GM Dark Side points.
    God is my witness; nobody else saw a damned thing.

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