MMO's and Trading Cards boone or bane?

[Opie Wan Kenopi]

The advent of WOTC’s release of 4e was a highly sought update to an old friend. Lurking in its covers was a system based on playing cards, battle systems and MMO style characters.

But is it all about money? Well heck yes it was, WOTC is a company that has to earn money for its share holders, and its employees. I must say after that one statement, there is no blame in that, nor do I think the new design of 4e is lame in it's intent.

Take some time to review the profiles of some of WOTC's new design teams. These guys are and gals are in their 20’s, are they the hard core gamers we like to think ourselves, YES (much as it pains us old farts). The only difference is they grew up in a different game environment. They wanted that environment to be part of the games they hear so much about from the old dogs that have to be chained in a back room with lots of pizza and mountain dew (Yes I am talking to you and I that graduated HS in the mid 80's).

The way to do it was to adopt systems that they had experience with. Not only does this make the system more familiar to them but makes the play more attractive to our fledgling gamers. Yes the old dogs hate to have to learn a new trick but its there I guess we deal or go extinct. We may not see shiny new books gracing the table of our 2e or even our 3.5e game but because 4e attracted a younger crowd we will continue to see new faces at the game table.

Do I think cards and MMO’s helped over all, YES… Do I have to like the new styles of play? A resounding NO but that’s what’s great about gaming I can keep playing an old version cause there will always be other folks that are a little old fashioned just like me, and we may even convert some of you new players to the dark side…


GAME ON, GAME FREE, GAME LIKE NO ONE IS WATCHING…

[cpljarhead]

opie,
remember there will always be us "old fart" hardcore gamers. by the time these "fledgelings" get to be our age and yes i graduated high school in mid 80's there would more than likely be another and newer version to take over making them the old fart hard core gamer and we will be the extinct relics of days past only to be occasionally dug up for a comvention or two to show the games history.

[Richard Littles]

I wouldn't say that 4E is a step up from what has come before and incorporates a lot of ideas from MMOs or video games for that matter. Even back in the 70s and 80s there were several games on the market that used cards and standardized characters like 4E is using now. The two that really springs to mind are Hero Quest and Taslantia. Video games and MMOs used a lot of what pen and paper rpgs had already done.

[Opie Wan Kenopi]

Yes I have to agree the term Old fart and the appropriate person to fill it will never become extinct. There will always be some old codger to fill it, I guess to my point, while we refuse to adapt there is an ever growing population of people that are entitled to the term "Hard Core Gamer" even if the older segment of the gamer population does not like to recognize it.

Mind you I was also defending the choices of WOT$ not 4e, which I personally won’t touch except to occasionally review to ensure I don't like it. Top that off I am a fan of several MMO's I play WoW and even still play Asherons Call. Both of which I enjoy immensely but I like MMO's for their simple quality and MMO mechanics, which I don’t like in my Pen and Paper gaming. I also played Magic the Gathering and while I think its now only a cash cow, and has way to much of a Used Car Dealer feel to it. I still respect the trading card systems niche in the gaming market, I just don’t want my D20 sessions to turn into "I untap my fighter and assign his attack phase to the orc in you defender line while Jerry has his mage tap his hold spell to cause the orc to tap, making him defenseless."

Three separate games, in my opinion that should stay separate, that despite my personal feelings on the matter no longer are. I understand why they designed the system they did with 4e. While this added simplicity has made the game easier to learn and revitalized a more youthful interest, it has also given it a cookie cutter feel. I have seen that standardization is king; anyone in a large company can tell you that. But, I hate it when it’s involved in my gaming. You have to basically disassemble the system to get creative with it.

The elements of RPG’s which were included in MMO’s are basic investments and probably couldn’t have been created any other way for the MMO’s. Short of creating a brand new system of 3rd person story telling with 1st person interaction, I do not see how the MMO’s could have evolved any differently than they did. The basic operation of MMO’s is RPG so it must be run in that system. I look all the way back to Adventure the text based computer game where Random Generation was the driving force and the only force to guide an adventure other than you text entry, (west, up, down, take, strike) for choice actions. It started the evolution of a computer as the host GM.
--- Merged from Double Post ---
By the way... Wow! I have not heard Taslantia in a dog’s age, I had almost forgotten about it all together. Never played it myself but the shop I worked in sold it. I also remember seeing it in the ads of my older Dragon's. Hero quest I do remember, I recall it was something of a cross between a board game and a RPG. That is a big simplification of course but that’s a first impression from my memory since I haven played HQ since my early military days and work at the hobby store.

[tesral]

No long rant needed. I can do without either. I've never been a card player, and MMO leaves me cold.

[Opie Wan Kenopi]

Come to the dark side Tesral... In the MMO there is great power, you must only follow your instinct to min max..... LOL

[tesral]

It's only the slightly dim side.

[Opie Wan Kenopi]

LOL....

oh wait was that a low shot???? lol

[tesral]

My basic objection to the CCGs was aways that the game is not in the box. You are not playing the other player's luck and skill using the same gameset, you are playing their pocketbook. Objection two is something that Lizards has introduced to RPG, churn. The next edition of cards is always coming out that you need for the sanctioned tournaments etc. Magic the Bankruptcy, Magic the Addiction.

MMOs on the other hand I simply have no desire to play. However they too have their addiction problems.

[michael]

I was really hoping that 4th ed. was going to go more "classless". I thought they might because of the advent of feats... But I was wrong.

[Opie Wan Kenopi]

Don’t get me wrong. I agree with the feeling on MMO’s and Cards, I also hate one of the things MMO’s have introduced to gaming, “The art of the Grind”. This is highly risky for addictive personalities. Another thing at fault with this is the transition this “Skill” has made into pen and paper games, it is what’s making role players harder and harder to find. The growing mindset is hack and slash is the only skill a person needs to play a pen and paper RPG.

I like MMO’s for what they offer, a network environment, with a huge group of folks (I have met some distant and pretty cool people online in WoW); it does lend itself to the influence of economics same as with the cards but again a lot of that has to do with addictive disorders.

So while I defend wizards “Business decision’, you wont find me defending the tired old trick they used to make it happen.

[Richard Littles]

Don’t get me wrong. I agree with the feeling on MMO’s and Cards, I also hate one of the things MMO’s have introduced to gaming, “The art of the Grind”. This is highly risky for addictive personalities. Another thing at fault with this is the transition this “Skill” has made into pen and paper games, it is what’s making role players harder and harder to find. The growing mindset is hack and slash is the only skill a person needs to play a pen and paper RPG.

I like MMO’s for what they offer, a network environment, with a huge group of folks (I have met some distant and pretty cool people online in WoW); it does lend itself to the influence of economics same as with the cards but again a lot of that has to do with addictive disorders.

So while I defend wizards “Business decision’, you wont find me defending the tired old trick they used to make it happen.

The art of the grind was introduced with D&D back in the 70s with its class/level based mechanics. MMOs just took that to the next level.

[Opie Wan Kenopi]

Ok yea I guess I can see that, if you look at the class and exp system as a fledgling version of the grind. It does make you seek monsters to kick as a fast source of exp. Though the GM does bear a burden to make Role play actually meaningful and D&D and AD&D did try to make it clear with suggestions that role play and meaningful participation should be rewarded. Also the there are better sources of individuality in PnP games where even as creative as I am I find I am just another Tauren Hunter with a gun and a Bear while I play WoW, character traits and personality just don’t shine through.

[Richard Littles]

Ok yea I guess I can see that, if you look at the class and exp system as a fledgling version of the grind. It does make you seek monsters to kick as a fast source of exp. Though the GM does bear a burden to make Role play actually meaningful and D&D and AD&D did try to make it clear with suggestions that role play and meaningful participation should be rewarded. Also the there are better sources of individuality in PnP games where even as creative as I am I find I am just another Tauren Hunter with a gun and a Bear while I play WoW, character traits and personality just don’t shine through.

I agree with you there. However, MMO design has followed what D&D and other class/level based rpgs had done. D&D has followed the logical steps of incorporating stuff they had previously done outside of the development of MMOs. Weapon Proficiencies and Non-Weapon Proficiencies were the early versions of skills and feats common in MMOs and in the current incarnation of D&D. All through the editions of D&D an elven fighter was nearly identical to any other elven fighter, which is no different from MMOs.

Since the advent of pen and paper rpgs there has always been two schools of thought regarding character development. You had the D&D class/level and the Hero System free form slow progression based on character points. I believe the next revolutionary step in MMO design will be developers going to the other school of thought and try it out. This will be an attempt to introduce more variety in characters that players can create due to the demands of the players, themselves, demanding greater diversity. Only a free form system can do that.

[Opie Wan Kenopi]

That is an MMO I would gladly play and plug for all around.

You have some development plans in the future... Turbine in Mass is putting people on now and then... If you can stand our nasty winters.... LOL