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Thread: Homebrew Rules. Everyone has a few. What are some of yours?

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    Thumbs up Homebrew Rules. Everyone has a few. What are some of yours?

    Everyone has their own Homebrew Rules. Please share some of yours with the rest of us. Be sure to list the game, and the edition, if applicable. All rpg homebrew rules are welcomed.

    What share you?
    Thoth-Amon, Lord of the Underworld and the Undead
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    For Palladium Fantasy i use a special set of rules for Pole-arms: Opponents must spend one action to move within striking range of the wielder. The wielder can counter the action by both characters rolling 1D20 + their P.P. bonuses; the highest roll wins. If the oppoent is in strike range of the wielder then the wielder is at a -2 to strike with either end of the weapon and -1 to disarm.
    I do not play them here or there, I do not play them anywhere, I do not play them with a fox. I do not mash that button box. I do not like MMO games. In the end ther're all the same.
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    It's a fairly minor one, but in my D&D 3.5 games, the Paladin's lay on hands is an immediate or swift action, rather than a standard action. It's just not enough healing to waste a standard action, or to really heal you between battles, all it's good for, in most cases, is an emergency "Oh crap I'm gonna die save me jesus" moment lol.
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    for a nat 1, we had more dire consequences happen than just miss.

    If nat 20 gives you something cool, nat 1 should give you something uncool.

    In 1e, we rolled 1d6. No matter the roll, the opponent got a free atk on you. On a 1-2, you fumbled your weapon, but recover. On a 3-4, you threw your weapon in a random direction. On a 5-6, you hit yourself, roll d20 to see if you hit AC, then roll dam if hit AC.

    In 4e, trying something similar with my new group, but it only provokes an opportunity atk on a 5-6, if not using a weapon 3-4 dazes you until end of you next turn, and a 1-2 you lose a healing surge (analogous to hitting one's self).
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    Quote Originally Posted by yukonhorror View Post
    for a nat 1, we had more dire consequences happen than just miss.

    If nat 20 gives you something cool, nat 1 should give you something uncool.

    In 1e, we rolled 1d6. No matter the roll, the opponent got a free atk on you. On a 1-2, you fumbled your weapon, but recover. On a 3-4, you threw your weapon in a random direction. On a 5-6, you hit yourself, roll d20 to see if you hit AC, then roll dam if hit AC.

    In 4e, trying something similar with my new group, but it only provokes an opportunity atk on a 5-6, if not using a weapon 3-4 dazes you until end of you next turn, and a 1-2 you lose a healing surge (analogous to hitting one's self).
    This was one of our long standing house rules too, 3rd ed.
    --- Merged from Double Post ---
    Quote Originally Posted by CEBedford View Post
    I have just one, which is a system of quirks/flaws. Players pick 3 character flaws that help define the character's personality and behavior. For every one they can use to create entertainment in game I award bonus XP. This is not just "Ok I farted in public, hand me those XPs." so players are well served to come up with clever ones.

    I realized a long time ago that I tend to like games to progress a bit faster than usual but instead of just handing them extra experience I decided to give them a simple way to earn it.
    We had this rule too in all of our campaigns and it really is a lot of fun to role play them out.
    Last edited by Chrisg; 07-09-2009 at 01:51 AM. Reason: Automerged Double Post

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    If I ever get enough interest in a Star Wars Saga Edition game, I'd totally steal FATE's aspects rules and apply them to Force Points; they're asking - nay, begging - to be used in such a manner. "Refresh each level" seems so ... arbitrary. Along with that, make Force powers take a point to activate, and waive the per-encounter limits; means taking the same power multiple times is silly ... 'cause it is silly.

    Natural <any roll> ... I really, really want to change, to explicitly have no effect, but I dunno if I'd implement it right off the bat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sascha View Post
    If I ever get enough interest in a Star Wars Saga Edition game, I'd totally steal FATE's aspects rules and apply them to Force Points; they're asking - nay, begging - to be used in such a manner. "Refresh each level" seems so ... arbitrary. Along with that, make Force powers take a point to activate, and waive the per-encounter limits; means taking the same power multiple times is silly ... 'cause it is silly.
    Actually, this has changed over time in Saga with new talents that have been introduced, particularly in the Jedi Training Manual. Jedi recuperate force points at a lightning quick pace with the right talents. And you can spend a force point to recover a power you've already used in combat. At low levels, sure, it kinda can seem limited for Jedi... but you have to remember that until you cross into the Jedi Knight prestige class, you're just a padawan. I mean, you don't even build your own lightsaber until level 7. And by the time you're a Jedi Knight, you have a nice suite of powers. I like how they did Force Powers in Saga... heck, I think I'd like powers in D&D 4E even better if they worked like Saga's Force Powers.
    --- Merged from Double Post ---
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelrain View Post
    AC in D&D has always bothered me. Armor doesn't prevent you from getting hit, it prevents you from getting wounded. So all armor in my D20 has damage reduction instead of AC. In order to compensate the drop in AC I allow all characters to spend any of their attack bonus to their defense bonus instead. So someone with +7 base attack could spend 4 on attack and 3 on defense. This gives a little more feel for a character adept with a weapon to parry and defend himself with it or a character taking 'cautious attacks' instead of an all out swing with everything he's got.

    I also introduce a variant of fighting defensively which is 'avoid melee' and characters receive a +6 dodge bonus with no attacks. Think of all those movies where a nimble character is being chased by some huge warrior with a weapon and manages to keep avoiding being hit by staying away.
    Actually, armor making you harder to hit makes sense. If you're wearing heavy platemail, the reason it's effective at all is that when you do get hit, it's supposed to deflect the blow. The way that I've always played d20 games is to take your base AC, and then add armor to it. If an attack would've hit you without your armor on, but it misses with your armor bonus, then the attack bounced off the armor. Also, I use the same theory for cover... if the bonus you receive from cover is what saves you, then the attack hits the cover. In a game with guns and bulletproof vests however, you're exactly right, armor reduces damage, and doesn't make you any harder to hit.

    What you have to remember is D&D and d20 as a whole abstract a lot of the combat. Does it matter whether you got hit or just resisted the damage? Not really, from a mechanical standpoint. So abstract it. That said, I like your attack/parry thing... reminiscent of another game I can't think of the name of right now, so that'll keep me up at night trying to remember. Do you let mages and other ranged characters have a similar ability though? Or is that just a melee power?

    As for fighting defensively... eh. I like the normal fight defensive, and I also like Saga edition's Fight Defensive (+2 bonus to defense if you attack, +5 if you don't, and there's a feat to change those numbers to +5 and +10 respectively. There's a penalty to the attacks if you take them, but it's not relevant to the discussion). I think that as far as your small nimble character vs. big warrior thing goes, size category differences and the normal fight defensive cover it well enough already.
    --- Merged from Double Post ---
    Quote Originally Posted by Dytrrnikl View Post
    I have always despised how Force Points have been handled since the game began being produced by WotC. ANyone familiar with the WEG d6 system new that spending a force point in that game resulted in heaping handful of dice to toss, as FP in WEG doubled the number of dice you tossed for all skills during that particular round, and once spent they were gone unless GM judged that it was used in a Heroic fashion. This is what I did in WotC Star Wars d20:
    - If not Force-Sensitive, max FP equal to 1/2 Wisdom score. Force-Sensitive characters had no limit on number of FP they could have.
    - Spending a Force Point granted a Force bonus to all task resolution rolls equal to 1/2 your character level plus the number of Force Points you currently had.
    - Any use of Force Skills that did damage to others was ruled an aggressive use of the Force, regardless of the why, resulting in a Darkside Point.
    - Once you spent a Force Point it was gone.
    - You began play with a number of Force Points equal to your Wisdom modifier, that once spent, they did not return, and you didn't automatically gain a Force Point each level.

    With the Saga edition, A Force Point Functions like a Destiny Point. You get 1 per level, and have a max of 1/2 wisdom for non-Jedi/non-force sensitive and no limit for Jedi/Force Sensitives. You can earn more by performing acts of dramatic heroism, but no more than 1 in any adventure. Due to how Force Points work, their are Character Points for the purpose of Talents, Feats, or other class features that require a Force Point to activate.
    I think you're kind of missing the point of Force Points in Saga. The Force is not a Bennie, or a mana pool in the Star Wars universe, it permeates everything. Characters who are force sensitive merely use the Force knowingly and in a controlled manner. Non-Force sensitive characters merely think they have good luck or some such thing, but they simply don't know that they're manipulating the Force too, just typically in a more subtle manner. You don't run out of Force either, though as a balance mechanic I can see why RPGs and video games set in the Star Wars universe tend to treat the Force as a (often quickly regenerating) mana pool. Sure, it may not seem like a level 1 Jedi has that many more Force Points than a level 1 Noble (they don't) but compare, say, 10th level characters. The Jedi (who has probably crossed into Jedi Knight) now has Force Points coming out the wazoo and they regenerate quickly, while the Noble is still only going to have a few, and they won't regenerate in nearly the same way.

    And ANY use of the Force that causes harm is Dark Side? I don't think so. It's the emotionality behind your actions that causes the Dark Side to rise in someone. The reason why no one kills the Emperor when they had him on the ropes at the end of The Force Unleashed is that no one could kill him without hate and anger in their hearts. The reason why Vader is able to kill the Emperor at the end of RotJ is that his heart isn't filled with hate, it's filled with love and compassion for Luke. Beyond that, all lightsaber fighting styles are infused with the Force, many of the combat force powers deal damage (as Saga doesn't differentiate between types of damage, some of the powers are obviously from the descriptions only talking someone down, and they still deal damage, and even stun damage also does not get counted separately)... this rule above all others hamstrings your players beyond measure in a combat scenario. Using the Force to torture earns you a Dark Side point. Using the Force to harm innocents, the helpless, or those who are surrendering earns you a Dark Side point. Using the Force in combat, however, does not. Hothead that he is, even Anakin's fall is not due entirely to his actions in combat. Sure, he invested himself emotionally into some fights, such as versus Dooku in Ep. II, probably resulting in a Dark Side point or two. And his execution of Dooku at the beginning of Ep. III was definitely Dark Side worthy. Over time, though, Palpatine had been inflicting Dark Side upon Anakin because Anakin believed what Palpatine was saying. By the time he goes on his murder spree, he's already full Dark Side, owing very little of that to his actions in combat.

    Do I think WotC's game is perfect? No. But it is well done, well balanced, and I believe gives the effect you are going for far better than you realize.
    Last edited by korhal23; 07-02-2009 at 12:54 AM. Reason: Automerged Double Post

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    Actually, armor making you harder to hit makes sense. If you're wearing heavy platemail, the reason it's effective at all is that when you do get hit, it's supposed to deflect the blow. The way that I've always played d20 games is to take your base AC, and then add armor to it. If an attack would've hit you without your armor on, but it misses with your armor bonus, then the attack bounced off the armor. Also, I use the same theory for cover... if the bonus you receive from cover is what saves you, then the attack hits the cover. In a game with guns and bulletproof vests however, you're exactly right, armor reduces damage, and doesn't make you any harder to hit.

    What you have to remember is D&D and d20 as a whole abstract a lot of the combat. Does it matter whether you got hit or just resisted the damage? Not really, from a mechanical standpoint. So abstract it. That said, I like your attack/parry thing... reminiscent of another game I can't think of the name of right now, so that'll keep me up at night trying to remember. Do you let mages and other ranged characters have a similar ability though? Or is that just a melee power?

    I based the splitting of the attack bonus for defense on the Rolemaster/MERP system which would allow you to use some of your % attack on your % defense. Maybe that is the system you are thinking of. For mages/rogues if they are proficient with the weapon then yes! A quarterstaff or dagger can deflect/parry melee attacks.

    For me it does matter if a character does get hit while wearing armor. I understand the AC concept but I just don't like it. Armor doesn't last forever. It takes damage from being hit. Leather can be cut, plate can be dented, chainmail can be punctured.

    If two people were standing side by side, one in plate and one in leather and you hauled off and hit them both with a baseball bat, both would hit but only one would probably be damaged.

    In a case where someone has a flaming sword, or an electrical charged sword, touch attacks, crush attacks, etc it can make a big difference. If you are being squeezed by a giant the leather armor isn't going to help much but that plate will! A plate wearer getting kicked by an giant might not take any damage might go flying! Just a preference when handling certain damaging situations and since damage reduction is already in the game, why not use it where it should really be used. I just like a 'hit' to be a 'hit' and not a 'just not wounded'.

    "Rick your warrior has taken about 20 hits from those pesky lil kobolds and although you are unhurt your armor needs a little adjusting. "

    As for fighting defensively... eh. I like the normal fight defensive, and I also like Saga edition's Fight Defensive (+2 bonus to defense if you attack, +5 if you don't, and there's a feat to change those numbers to +5 and +10 respectively. There's a penalty to the attacks if you take them, but it's not relevant to the discussion). I think that as far as your small nimble character vs. big warrior thing goes, size category differences and the normal fight defensive cover it well enough already.
    I'm not familiar with Saga's version of defensive fighting. There just aren't any rules that I am aware of that give you a bonus of completely avoiding combat and being as defensive as possible. The fighting defensively assumes you are still going to make an attack. What about if you are just interested in saving your own hide and forgoing any attacks? That's why I introduced it.

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    I also like the split your attack bonus rule.

    There are several house rules that I like to use for all of my games, some of them are just jokes that started, others are serious.

    For example, Rule 0 - As a player, never give the DM ideas. For example, we use natural 1s as critical failures, if Player A rolls a 1, Player B shouldn't say "OH MAN, he's gonna chop off his toe!"

    This sort of gave birth to what my old group called "The 0th Amendment" (as in the Constitution) which protects the American Right to *****. As in, "I always get hit, my mountain dew is warm." "Great, JoeBob is using his 0th Amendment rights."

    And, my personal favorite house rule, the Platypus Rule. This refers to the apparent error God made when he created the platypus. The rule reads: All mistakes are final. It's impossible for anyone to remember all of the rules in a game, especially one with a lot of rules like D&D or GURPS. So. If it is brought to the attention of the DM that a spell should have had a will save instead of a reflex save, or whatever, the old rulings still stand, but future rulings will use the correct system. This eliminates a lot of tension, aggravation, arguing, and speeds up gameplay because people aren't stopping to look up rules to end quibbles. Just at the beginning of the game, let everyone know about the Platypus Rule.
    "Wit is educated insolence." - Aristotle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelrain View Post
    There just aren't any rules that I am aware of that give you a bonus of completely avoiding combat and being as defensive as possible. The fighting defensively assumes you are still going to make an attack. What about if you are just interested in saving your own hide and forgoing any attacks? That's why I introduced it.
    TOTAL DEFENSE
    You can simply defend your self as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action, so it helps you against any attacks of opportunity you provoke during the round. You canít combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat, since using either of these tactics requires you to declare an attack or full attack. You canít make attacks of opportunity while using total defense. If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC when using total defense.

    That's right out of the D&D 3.5 Rules Compendium. I'm a bit of a rules lawyer, but I guess I'm a CN version cuz I only care if it affects me, lol.
    --- Merged from Double Post ---
    Kept reading after I posted before and realized I shouldn't have let my eagerness to share knowledge overrule me... Someone already posted about total defense. Sorry.
    Last edited by Ishcumbeebeeda; 07-28-2009 at 03:03 PM. Reason: Automerged Double Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by korhal23 View Post
    Actually, this has changed over time in Saga with new talents that have been introduced, particularly in the Jedi Training Manual. Jedi recuperate force points at a lightning quick pace with the right talents. And you can spend a force point to recover a power you've already used in combat. At low levels, sure, it kinda can seem limited for Jedi... but you have to remember that until you cross into the Jedi Knight prestige class, you're just a padawan. I mean, you don't even build your own lightsaber until level 7. And by the time you're a Jedi Knight, you have a nice suite of powers. I like how they did Force Powers in Saga... heck, I think I'd like powers in D&D 4E even better if they worked like Saga's Force Powers.
    Heh, all I have is the main book, and it's likely that'll be the extent of it. I'd rather all characters have the same access to Force Points, not just those with the right options; rewarding system mastery isn't a feature in my eyes. (Incidentally, the way 4E powers work is such an awesome change from previous editions; too bad the rest of my group feels differently :P)

    Since I'm currently prepping a one-shot for Friday, these rules are getting a closer look. Gonna be taking notes on how the power suites and Force Points get used (or even if they get used), as well as armor adding to Reflex (which seems ... counterintuitive, not to mention armor doesn't seem to be, er, all that protective in the films). It's like the rules didn't go far enough from DnD assumptions to match the source material, in some respects. What I expect from the license and what the game provides mesh well, but they do have some conflicts and that spurs me to tinker

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    The only homebrew rule (although I think its in the 3.5 DM Guide) is critical fumble. If a natural 1 is rolled, I have the player, monster, or npc roll again and unless they get a 10 - with dex modifier - then that person drops their weapon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sascha View Post
    Heh, all I have is the main book, and it's likely that'll be the extent of it. I'd rather all characters have the same access to Force Points, not just those with the right options; rewarding system mastery isn't a feature in my eyes. (Incidentally, the way 4E powers work is such an awesome change from previous editions; too bad the rest of my group feels differently :P)

    Since I'm currently prepping a one-shot for Friday, these rules are getting a closer look. Gonna be taking notes on how the power suites and Force Points get used (or even if they get used), as well as armor adding to Reflex (which seems ... counterintuitive, not to mention armor doesn't seem to be, er, all that protective in the films). It's like the rules didn't go far enough from DnD assumptions to match the source material, in some respects. What I expect from the license and what the game provides mesh well, but they do have some conflicts and that spurs me to tinker
    Out of the core book only:

    If you want more force points, there's a feat called Force Boon, granting three more. If you want Force Points to be more effective when you spend them, there's Strong in the Force, which has you roll d8s instead of d6s. Force Training of course grants more powers into your suite. The reason you would stay as a Jedi and NOT cross into Jedi Knight is to get a few more feats, as Jedi receive extra feats every even level and Jedi Knights don't. If you want to return powers to your suite without spending Force Points, there are several Force Talents to do so, such as Telekenetic Savant, or Telekenetic Power which lets you use a power immediately again if you roll a nat20 on certain powers Use the Force check. Force Focus lets you make a Use the Force check as a standard action to return a power without spending a point, and even by level 3 most Jedi should be at the point where failing that check is less than 10%.

    Jedi Knights also receive Force Talents. One of these is to recover a force point at the end of an encounter, and can be taken multiple times, for multiple Force point returns.

    Having Destiny points in your game is another even more power addition. You gain one Destiny point per level, and if you complete your destiny and pick a new one, you gain a whole new set of Destiny points, one for each level you have attained. Destiny points have numerous effects on their own, and can greatly boost your roles and powers. They also have the power to be converted into Force Points... 1 Destiny Point = 3 Force points.

    Naturally, no one will have all of these abilities under their belt, but all Force sensitive characters will have at least some of them. This system doesn't reward system mastery, it's just obvious which way you will play your character early on... some players will have Jedi who are very force power dependent, some players will have Jedi that only have a power or three. Jedi are one of those classes where all stats are relevant to them in some manner, but every person that makes a Jedi will slant him/her one way or another. If you're playing at low levels, players may feel the need to hang on to their powers until they feel they really need them, so you may see powers not used that much. Put your players around levels 5 and beyond and you'll start seeing more powers being used.

    As for the armor question: Armor isn't that useful in the game. Armor adds to your Reflex Defense (like 4E, defenses are static numbers), however when wearing armor you must use the armor's Reflex bonus, instead of your Heroic Level. Sometimes this is a good thing, sometimes not so much. But that being said, you'll notice that there is no AC... Reflex Defense is your only defense against most physical attacks. Armor also has the benefit of boosting your Fortitude defense as well... So the tradeoff as you level is do you want to use armor to have your Fortitude defense be higher but hurt your Reflex, or take the armor off and lose the Fort bonus but gain Reflex. The only class that really has any use for armor beyond level 4 or 5 is the Soldier (or the Jensaarai, the rebel Jedi who blended Jedi teachings with Sith teachings to make their own branch, they wear armor too), because with talents they can potentially choose to use their Heroic Level for reflex if it's higher than the armor (while retaining the armor's Fort bonus), and then with another talent they can ADD their level and the armor bonus to Reflex.

    Other than that, armor's only use is if it is also an environmental suit.

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    I think you're kind of missing the point of Force Points in Saga. The Force is not a Bennie, or a mana pool in the Star Wars universe, it permeates everything. Characters who are force sensitive merely use the Force knowingly and in a controlled manner. Non-Force sensitive characters merely think they have good luck or some such thing, but they simply don't know that they're manipulating the Force too, just typically in a more subtle manner.
    I'm not saying The Force is supposed to be a bennie or a mana pool. I've always seen a distinction between a Jedi that uses "Use the Force" skill and then all characters being able to use Force Points. One is a constant manipulation of the Force - Use the Force, while the other is more akin to a quick, but powerful 'burst of adrenaline' - Force Point. With WotC, Force Points seem hohum and not very dramatic, especially with talents that require a Force Point to activate. The use of the Destiny mechanic and the spending of Destiny points has moer of the feel of a WEG Force Point...that quick, powerful 'burst of adrenaline' that feels dramatic and has a definate impact. For me, it's mainly a flavor thing.

    You don't run out of Force either, though as a balance mechanic I can see why RPGs and video games set in the Star Wars universe tend to treat the Force as a (often quickly regenerating) mana pool. Sure, it may not seem like a level 1 Jedi has that many more Force Points than a level 1 Noble (they don't) but compare, say, 10th level characters. The Jedi (who has probably crossed into Jedi Knight) now has Force Points coming out the wazoo and they regenerate quickly, while the Noble is still only going to have a few, and they won't regenerate in nearly the same way.
    Like I said, I'm not looking for the Force to be a finite 'goodad'. That's covered by the basic uses granted with the "Use the Force" skill, the Force powers suite of Saga and the variety of methods in which Force Powers in the suite can be 'returned' during an encounter. However, I do believe that 'adrenaline burst' of a Force Point is definately something that you just run out of.


    And ANY use of the Force that causes harm is Dark Side? I don't think so...Beyond that, all lightsaber fighting styles are infused with the Force, many of the combat force powers deal damage (as Saga doesn't differentiate between types of damage, some of the powers are obviously from the descriptions only talking someone down, and they still deal damage, and even stun damage also does not get counted separately)... this rule above all others hamstrings your players beyond measure in a combat scenario.
    I'm referring directly to powers such as Force Thrust, Force Slam, Force Grip, or Move Object to hurl something at someone or Hurl someone...not the use of a lightsaber. If the power specifically states that it is deals stun damage, only one or two that I'm aware of, then no darkside point awarded, but I warn the player that they are stepping a bit close to the darkside. I run Star Wars campaigns in which everything is very much 'black and white' - 'good or evil'.

    It's the emotionality behind your actions that causes the Dark Side to rise in someone. The reason why no one kills the Emperor when they had him on the ropes at the end of The Force Unleashed is that no one could kill him without hate and anger in their hearts. The reason why Vader is able to kill the Emperor at the end of RotJ is that his heart isn't filled with hate, it's filled with love and compassion for Luke. Using the Force to torture earns you a Dark Side point. Using the Force to harm innocents, the helpless, or those who are surrendering earns you a Dark Side point. Using the Force in combat, however, does not. Hothead that he is, even Anakin's fall is not due entirely to his actions in combat. Sure, he invested himself emotionally into some fights, such as versus Dooku in Ep. II, probably resulting in a Dark Side point or two. And his execution of Dooku at the beginning of Ep. III was definitely Dark Side worthy. Over time, though, Palpatine had been inflicting Dark Side upon Anakin because Anakin believed what Palpatine was saying. By the time he goes on his murder spree, he's already full Dark Side, owing very little of that to his actions in combat.
    While you make a strong case, I disagree. Your point seems to echo of the Unifying Force concept from the final book in the Yushong Vong series. That whole last book of the series is as bad as the introduction of midi-fricking-chlorians. I stick with the Light Side being a use of the Force that is in harmony with life - ie. uses that do not harm others or other life forms, while the Dark Side is a use of the Force that is out of harmony with life - ie. using the Force to harm others, either directly (as with Force Lightning, Forec Slam, Force Grip, and so forth) or indirectly (as Palpatine did by manipulating and twisting Anakin). It's a flavor thing, and one that I know not many agree with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dytrrnikl View Post
    I stick with the Light Side being a use of the Force that is in harmony with life - ie. uses that do not harm others or other life forms, while the Dark Side is a use of the Force that is out of harmony with life - ie. using the Force to harm others, either directly (as with Force Lightning, Forec Slam, Force Grip, and so forth) or indirectly (as Palpatine did by manipulating and twisting Anakin). It's a flavor thing, and one that I know not many agree with.
    but in our current order, death is in harmony with life. the growth of trees kills off undergrowth, and breaks the rocks underneath. The water supports lives by the trillions, but also breaks rocks and kills with deadly storms and floods. you kill insects almost every time you step into grass. the jedi temple being built destroyed the homes of some animals, not to mention the city it was in. trees will shun and lean away from a tree that is sick. animals eat each other. in the end, the plants and maggots eat everything else. all of this could be considered harm from a point of view. but it is all in harmony with life as a whole. life forms give way to other life forms. your flavor seems to be ignoring some aspects of harmony. on the other hand, our current order is not the only way to live, either.

    it is possible that the force might find it more harmonious to prevent, or even destroy, a few individuals who would otherwise destroy thousands of lives, than to allow the thousands of lives to perish.

    for the record, i do not disagree with your core idea of the clear black/white line... more that i disagree with some of your definitions, and possibly where that line is being drawn. i too happen to believe that in real life good and evil is as clearly defined as black and white. humans are not always able to see it clearly. too close, or too far in many cases.
    Last edited by nijineko; 07-09-2009 at 02:58 AM.
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