Why I am Back with GURPS :-)

Posted in a SJGames thread here, but reproduced here for P&PG Games pleasure... (My two major posts)

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Inspired from "why is GURPS not as popular as d20" and "The OTHER GURPS renaming it" threads and perhaps a tinge of personal guilt...

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Originally Posted by Various Person's Misconceptions

GURPS is not popular, it needs a new {adventure, setting, supplement, how-to guide} to invigorate its market presence, GURPS is too math intensive, GURPS character creation takes too long, GURPS is hard, GURPS causes geek-o-plasmy, GURPS is dry/boring/too generic...

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*sigh*

I have pondered these "problems" much lately with the several threads bantering about the last 60 days. GURPS has some misconceptions out there. I think the desire of these threads are rooted in these misconceptions and what people perceive is a problem "selling the game". A new name is not going to change anything. A new setting or adventure is not going to help. Only the fan base through playing and sharing the game are going to increase the market value of GURPS and ultimately overcome the misconceptions. Even with our efforts it's likely GURPS will never overcome all its misconceptions or enamor its detractors. But we could be trying harder. At least, that is what I realized over the last couple of days.

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Originally Posted by Trent's Analogy

I used to be an Amway distributor in my younger more ideal years. Eventually they changed their name in hopes of overcoming the stereotype of the "evil pushy MLM pod people". Problem was, Quixtar was considered just as "annoying" to people as Amway. MLM is MLM. Some people are going to be interested and others are going to find out your pitching an MLM and are instantly turned off. Also, the name change backfired. Many prospects considered it underhanded to be at yet another "Amway" pitch when they were pulled in under another pretext.

They eventually just went back to commercials talking about Amway. Because in the end, the time the company has been around and the name had more brand power than they could fight against. The focus had to change from a simple NAME to the behavior and approach of the distributors themselves. Impressions, misconceptions, and opinions don't change overnight. These kinds of real changes require substance. An investment of integrity and elbow grease from people who sincerely want the perception to change. Want another stark reality check? People still don't generally like MLM pitches including Amway. But the efforts of the company and distributors have started changing how people perceive Amway; more so than any other initiative the company has tried.

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GURPS as a name is perfect. It describes EXACTLY what the game is doing. It has years of brand power and recognition. The misconceptions around GURPS are only going to be overcome with people playing the game and realizing the benefits of using GURPS. Also, consider that as my generation (class of 1980 inducted fat-beard grognards) ages, we have found less time to create and tinker. In my case, my desire to make my hobby a business has interfered with my deep need to create and express. I don't think I am alone in my dysfunction. Why not just support the game I love and not worry about the business? Is it really that hard to pull something together with GURPS? Are we not just getting distracted and lazy? I feel like I have been. Distracted and lazy.

Let's be honest. Even us GURPS fans don't help most of the time. There are a few diehards and then there are those of us with system ADD that are easily distracted. We sympathize with those who disparage GURPS because we hope to build bridges and understanding. We start fan Wikis that languish, collaborative projects that die in the creative womb, and generally carry on like a bowl of flakes surrounded by Fruit Loops in warm milk. There are people on the forums in the GURPS forum who don't like GURPS. Bah! We certainly don't need controversy, but it would be nice to see fans pitching ideas that help overcome the bias we (maybe subconsciously) see undermining the player base of GURPS. We don't need to disparage GURPS detractors. But we could revitalize a focus to inject solutions and ideas into those conversations to impress upon potential players what GURPS can do. There are piles of threads in the GURPS forum with no one is pitching GURPS system solutions or ideas. Are we missing an opportunity to Bring the GURPS?

In addition, we GURPS fans are constantly pining for the next thing but what about all the stuff we already have?!?! I have TWO shelves of GURPS stuff. Does it not bother me just a little that I have piles of GURPS stuff I could be using to run a fantastically fun RPG right now but I keep thinking "I need Low Tech or Thaumatology to REALLY pull this off...". B.S. Yeah, it bothers me now. I need to stop. I feel like my lack of support is helping a movement of fans that are actually sabotaging the support of GURPS.

I feel guilty about this (obviously!). I love GURPS. I have for some time. But I make excuses. "People won't play GURPS" "It's hard to find players" "It's too much work". Funny thing is; I am sure that if I brought an adventure with pre-gens to my monthly game day, I could find interested players who want to learn a new game or try something new. I just have to stop focusing on the misconceptions and start focusing on WHY I like GURPS and then do something with it.

After playing a multitude of games this year, I have realized I really just want to run GURPS. I am not going to compromise anymore. I have some ideas for "bringing the GURPS" so I am going to polish them up and share them. This convention I am attending next weekend is my last dalliance with other games. It's time I put my money (and time) where my mouth (and heart) is!

So, what will you do to share the game? What pet project have you put off? What Wiki needs some dusting off? What do we need to do to BRING THE GURPS?!?! I am interested in this conversation. Taking action puts us in control and gives us something we can do that doesn't' rest on the laurels of someone else. We are fans and our fanaticism can make an impact.

Anyhoo, that became a long winded diatribe! I guess I have been doing some soul searching, and pondering these threads, and I had an epiphany. My intent was not to insult anyone, so I apologize if I did. I just needed to vent/share!

Sincerely,


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I thought maybe someone would be interested to know. How did I come to realize I wanted GURPS (again)? Here's my story.

I have looked at piles of systems, read hundreds, played dozens, and bought/sold whole collections. Except I always keep my GURPS. I have always wanted to run a regular GURPS group but (as previously mentioned) made excuses. One was a delusion. I wanted to publish a setting. I thought I could make a go of it doing my own thing, but frankly it's not what I want. I don't want to invent new systems from whole cloth; I just want to create my settings, ideas, and adventures. Then run a game with them!

I looked at lighter systems but realized after a few sessions that tweaking out the rules or looking outside the narrow scope of what those systems offered was way more work than I wanted. Things like magic and powers were under-developed and customizing them was a chore. Several systems hardly offered any magic or powers at all. So much is left out to get the "guts" published that after a few games that "emptiness" became glaring. I kept thinking to myself "I could easily tweak that out or add something new if we were playing GURPS instead". One of the games I ran had several players disappointed because we couldn't really customize spells without some serious tinkering and hand-waving. I felt like the game had short term play potential but was lacking the substance I wanted to support a longer-term campaign.

I then thought to try out the popular games because they had the largest player base. This is what people are looking for, might as well try and cater to that need. I settled down to try out several sessions of D&D 4e (Living Forgotten Realms) a couple sessions of Pathfinder and took a long look into Fantasy Craft. I was reminded why I didn't like d20 anymore, especially classes and levels. I realized that regardless of how pretty or "changed" these games were not going to inspire me again. I just don't like them. What I did garner from the popular games? The bulk of the popular games are as involved as GURPS is, both in tactical combat, character creation, and options. Why go with a game I feel is less internally consistent that GURPS?

Sprinkled in these sessions were a plethora of smaller publisher and "Indy" games; Mouse Guard, 3:16, Godlike, Danger Patrol, Starblazer Adventures, Swashbucklers of the 7 Skies. I also managed a couple World of Darkness games to boot! Recently I played Shadowrun 4e and started reading and learning Earthdawn 3e.

I experienced some interesting things.

The Indy story games I played in were hardly used in the "narrative story-focused" capacity one may have thought - even the ones "designed" to do so. At demos people tended to just play the games the same way they would any other ignoring the system parts they didn't "get". Like plot manipulation which I have not seen taken very well with most of the players introduced to the concept. Some games have different ways of presenting the same "this modifies your roll in some way" system. In the end it really is just more work to arrive at the same place; that action has a penalty or a bonus based on some situation/factor.

Also, the whole "this inspires the player to play the character in a particular way" or "this rewards a particular behavior" effect was overstated. Certainly there are some mechanics that inspire me, but I haven't met a lot of players yet that will use them. I HAVE learned some neat GM tricks and ideas from these games, but I can accomplish the bulk of these effects with GURPS. Also, there are PILES of GMs that don't bother to bring any part of the special character stuff (disads, flaws, etc.) into the game. I will, so it can't hurt to have them.

Going to "laser focused" games with "new innovative" systems didn't really impress upon me a significant difference. I don't see any reason at this point to "go light" in hopes that a mechanic is going to inspire player behavior or somehow create a more involved story. I just didn't see it. Players just ask more questions and the GM is like, just roll or "this happens" and it left a feeling of disconnection with the imaginary world and the game. I did freeform make believe when I was a young lad, and I grew up to want some actual rules for it. Systems do not create good players. Being a good player requires several things most of which is a desire to not be a jerk. A system can't protect you from the jerk.

Additionally, many games have complexity or the illusion of complexity; GURPS is not some special culprit in this arena. It took me four days to create a Shadowrun 4e Rigger, and I am still tweaking him out after the first session. It's not a bad thing, just my inexperience and the breadth of the options made for a longer haul. Such will it be for any new players of a game they don't know. I can make that process easier and faster as an experienced GM. It will depend on the investment the GM makes into the players. It is not really system specific.

Also, many games are just as "complex" or appear complex as first glance. GURPS is not unique in this area. And just like GURPS, many of these systems play just fine. Some require more referencing than others, but the universal truth of "knowing this game makes everything about this game go faster" applied to all of them.

After looking at all this I just had to ask myself "what makes this any different than GURPS?" If I can't really see any difference, than what is it about this system I like MORE than GURPS? Nothing. I guess I could learn and support and play a multitude of systems, but in the end I really just want to become proficient in one. I really like generic systems. Always have. It fits what I want and I can't compromise that anymore. If there is going to be ramp up time (and I believe there always will be) and there is going to be some time invested in character creation (and I believe there always should be) then the "benefits" of a "faster" or "lighter" game don't measure up in my mind.

So I have chosen to be a GURPS GM again. Exclusively. There are lots of people out there running other games and I am going to focus on this one.

Just my personal experience. YMMV. :-D

I guess I am the exact opposite when it comes to wanting to be involved with GURPS. I tried literally for years with my absolute favorite settings to get interested in GURPS, but I could not. The system is just too bloody complex. While not as bad as anything from the defunct FGU, who were at least honest enough to say "The system is complex because life is complex," GURPS manages to make even the simplest thing a week long event. Character creation or even worse, ship design are brutal. I can't speak for the math majors out there, but if your system involves cube roots, it is too complicated!

In addition to the needless, one could even say mindless, complexity, my major problem with anything designed by SJGames is the company's insistence on one second long combat rounds. As an experienced marksman, with more years in the Army than I care to remember, a GURPS character can do more in one second than any human can possibly do.

However, on the other hand, the extremely detailed nature of GURPS has one very strong plus. If you need a resource book, you simply can not beat a GURPS book. If I am running a setting and there is a GURPS book for that setting, I will snap it up as the GURPS book, even though it will never be used as the game being played, as I know it will cover the setting I am running better than anything short of a doctoral thesis on the topic.

I guess it is gamers like yourself that keep GURPS afloat as somebody must like the complexity to keep the system alive after so long. Many far easier, and in my opinion fun, systems have had their parent company fold up over the years, so who is to say which view point is right. Good on ya for sticking to your system of choice. I can admire a gamer of conviction even if I completely disagree with their opinion.

GURPS 4e fixes some of these problems.

I never bother with vehicle creation rules. I stat for what I feel fits what I need and go. There really is no vehicle design system for GURPS 4 yet, but Spaceships has a nice, simpler approach to designing space ships.

GURPS basic system and combat are quite simple. You can skip all the options. Also, you can skip stuff that some insist is "inherent" to the game. For example, why not just say rounds are 3 seconds with the same limitations? Is it really going to break anything? Nope. I have piles of GURPS books. I have not read one thing in any of them that would suggest a one-second combat round is paramount to the system.

One of the misconceptions I don't understand is the complexity issue. 4 stats, hit points, fatigue points, skills, 3d6 roll under target number. The rules state you can use the detailed modifier tables OR just ballpark a difficulty (table included with examples of how that might apply) or just apply a modifier that makes sense to you. So you could look up the speed and distance of a target or just say "that will be -5 to skill because the car is moving really fast and far away".

The "core engine" of GURPS is not complicated. Character Creation is involved but not complex, simply because there are so many options. Want to make it faster? Easy.

1) Create a standard template with all the options you want characters to have for your game.
2) Add on various roles you envision for characters in your game and create that many templates from your base template
3) Create "lenses" with some options (like packages) for players to pick.
4) Create equipment packages for players to pick.
5) Give out total points for the package and skip disads. Let enterprising players choose disads after char gen that will give them opportunities to earn more character points in play versus min/max math during char gen.

If you hit e23 right now, there are two series of PDF products; Dungeon Fantasy and Action! that provide much of this work already and a plethora of examples for the genre.

GURPS is as complex as you want to make it. Grab 4e GURPS lite and the free fantasy adventure from e23 (Caravan to Ein Arris). Give it another go. It really does play fast and you have plenty of optional rules to add later if you and your group want them. Also, they distilled GURPS into an Ultra Lite version as well. Gets you the real basics in 2 pages! :D

Why do you feel GURPS is complicated?

As I said in my first post, I can admire your conviction while completely disagreeing with your opinion. I tried for the better part of ten years to get into GURPS and simply could not make it happen. I have drawn a line and I will not sink any more money into a system I just don't like. Except in the case of as a reference for a setting that I am using a different system, there will be no more GURPS for me.

The reason I find GURPS too complex is that it has too many rules. There are rules for everything and if not yet, the next book will have them. You mention how you can trim the rules to suit. I'd rather start with a rules lite system like d6 or Cortex and add to suit. However, that is just me. When it comes to GURPS our opinions will always be diametrically opposed, so this is where we will have to agree to disagree.

It is good that you're going with a system that you like. I wish you luck and leave you with a bit of advice. For the first couple of gaming sessions with new groups talk with the players about what kind of characters they would like to play and create the characters for them. This way they're not inundated with all the options that GURPS has for character creation. Spend the first part of the session explaining the basic mechanics like stats and dice rolls then start the adventure. During the game a lot of players will have no problems with the system and may even like the options/control they have over their characters in comparison to their current system of choice.

In my playtest campaign only one player has experience with the Hero System. I asked each of the players to write up a short description of their character's personality then sat with them one on one to create their characters. The process took maybe an hour for each character and after the first session all of the players were going, "Wow Hero makes my character seem to be flesh and blood like they're a real person. You can't get this kind of detail in X system."

I have always liked the GURPS system, but had a difficult time finding players of a similar mind. I tend to prefer to play over GMing, but I can be just as happy doing one as the other...

I'm a lazy GM though, and while GURPS has a ton of great "setting" books, I have always found the thing GURPS seems to be the most lax in, is catering to the lazy GM. There just aren't enough "adventures" out there to buy and use. While I may be a lazy GM, I do try to tweak adventure modules, and include ongoing story hooks... So I tend to want/need a good body of modules to choose from, and so far GURPS either doesn't seem to have that, or it just isn't obvious enough.

I think one of the things GURPS could do to compete with the other systems is to release more adventure modules as some of the bigger competitors systems. In reading some of the lengthy posts above, there was mention of a source for GURPS adventures, but that facet seems to have gotten lost to me when I read through the rest of the discussion and tried to go back and find it.

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Originally Posted by michaelsbagley

I have always liked the GURPS system, but had a difficult time finding players of a similar mind. I tend to prefer to play over GMing, but I can be just as happy doing one as the other...

I'm a lazy GM though, and while GURPS has a ton of great "setting" books, I have always found the thing GURPS seems to be the most lax in, is catering to the lazy GM. There just aren't enough "adventures" out there to buy and use. While I may be a lazy GM, I do try to tweak adventure modules, and include ongoing story hooks... So I tend to want/need a good body of modules to choose from, and so far GURPS either doesn't seem to have that, or it just isn't obvious enough.

I think one of the things GURPS could do to compete with the other systems is to release more adventure modules as some of the bigger competitors systems. In reading some of the lengthy posts above, there was mention of a source for GURPS adventures, but that facet seems to have gotten lost to me when I read through the rest of the discussion and tried to go back and find it.

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GURPS has some of the best setting books while Hero has the best genre books. One of my favorite books for GURPS is the one that has all the prewritten character disadvantages. Adventure books really don't sell well which is why most companies aren't dedicating resources into producing adventure books. The order of profitability in rpgs from highest to lowest: Core Rules, Settings, and Adventures.

For example, GURPS will make the most money from their core rules because they're needed to play their game. Settings really cut down on preparation time due to the write ups for characters and important NPCs plus all the equipment is done for the GM strapped for time. Adventures don't make a lot of money because GMs typically eschew the one size fits all approach that adventures take. Until adventure writers are willing to put forth the effort to include multiple approaches to a single adventure there isn't much of a demand. The only company that did eschew the one size fits all approach is no longer in business, but their adventures were a work of beauty since they accounted for various approaches that groups use.

It would never work for me or my group as most of us

A. Hate all point based character creation
B. Templates are not flexible enough

oWOD and MRQ are examples of character creations we like. Some template mixed with point buy. I also personally hate rolling damage and to hit. Shadowrun and nWOD are examples of combat resolution I enjoy.

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Originally Posted by MortonStromgal

It would never work for me or my group as most of us

A. Hate all point based character creation
B. Templates are not flexible enough

oWOD and MRQ are examples of character creations we like. Some template mixed with point buy.

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You do know that GURPS 4e has this, yes? And it was easily done in 3e as well.

Anyway, I think GURPS is a great system and I think its complexity is overstated. It's unfortunate that a lot of gamers seem to break out in hives at the mere mention of the word GURPS. It's awesome for groups that can remember that rules are made to be broken.

Has what? Last I checked GURPS doesn't let you pick primary and secondary attributes. Or pick I want to be an Order of Hermes and then spend your points where you like with guidelines. Thats not to say you couldn't build it that way but the Templates are either too strict or too loose there is no set templates cost 25pts then add what you like. So you end up with characters all over the place if you just use templates or they end up with a bunch of points left to spend. It also irritates me personally the templates have pre set attributes. Minimums I could understand but that all cops start with dex 12 bothers me. You can of course add points or remove from the template but then why not build it from scratch at that point. Character creation just isnt eligant. I can't take a new player and have them pop out a character in 15 min or less.

The 3d6 roll under works great. Theres plenty of things GURPS does right (chainmail!) but it just wont work with my group unless I want to spend more time building templates than running adventures. I'm currently running Shadowrun 3e and its a real stretch with the resource management for them. They are used to just taking resources 3 and call it done. I actually simplified it by saying if a peice of equipement is less than 1/100th the cost of your lifestyle you can just have it.

I actually enjoy designing vehicles, though I do admit that I use the Vehicle Builder to do it. Kind of like a little game of it's own.

I too will join Skygalleons in applauding your focus and dedication to a game you love even though we stand on nearly opposite ends of the spectrum.

I owned GURPS for a short time and read it only to realize that it wasn't the sort of game design philosophy that I look for.

Sort of like Skygalleons said, in *very* brief terms, the older I get and more RPG systems I encounter, the more I realize that what I want sides with simplicity. Something that relies more heavily upon judgement calls and application of relativistic common sense than specifically detailed rules formulas. Wushu (especially Wushu Open Reloaded) represents something that fairly closely approaches more my style of rules. In fact, it creates an almost antithetical scenario when compared to most modern RPG systems in that the narrative intensity dictates the game mechanics rather than the other way around. It's not a perfect game (if anyone has found the "perfect" game, please let me know) but it has shown me that awesome things are possible when one is willing to distance oneself from more traditional archetypes and attempt to view things from entirely unconventional points of view.

But still, I admire you for the fact that you've pierced the haze of distraction and apathy and pursue your passions boldly and unapologetically. I personally know what it feels like to want to pursue an interest with such dogged determination and how that intensity of desire can be the beginning of life-changing experiences. Whether GURPS or d20, Palladium or D6, ORE, Savage Worlds, Unisystem, HERO, Risus or otherwise, we all share one thing in common: we love our games! :D

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Originally Posted by MortonStromgal

Has what? Last I checked GURPS doesn't let you pick primary and secondary attributes. Or pick I want to be an Order of Hermes and then spend your points where you like with guidelines.

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GURPS 4e does allow you to adjust secondary attributes (Will, Speed, Move, etc.) based on the primary stats (ST, DX, IQ, HT).

I'm not sure how what you described differs from templates. Templates are just packages of advantages, disadvantages (when it makes sense), skills, and average stats. If you want to be in "Order of Hermes", the GM sets up a template for the Order of Hermes, as well as guidelines for what to spend points in (e.g. no Computers/TL 11). Templates allow GMs to customize their world, and players to build characters quickly without drinking from the firehose of options.

That said, if you *do* have your own world, and SJ Games or some fan site doesn't have a supplement that might help, making your own templates can be daunting. I'm daunted, at least. I'd love to give GURPS a spin if only for nostalgia's sake, but a serious campaign would need at least as many templates as characters, if not two or three times as many. I'd probably give the players GURPS Lite and a list of approved advantages, disadvantages, and skills from the main book, plus some basic templates. (I'd also have to forbid one or two advantages in GURPS Lite, like Jumper ...)

3d6 roll under is one of the things I'm not so much a fan of anymore; roll-over makes math at the table simpler.

As for resource management, you could simply use a character's level in the Wealth advantage instead of tracking dollars and cents (or silvers and coppers).

I agree that simpler systems like PDQ, FATE, Wushu, and Risus end up being more malleable, but I have a soft spot in my withered black heart for GURPS the way others fondly remember D&D (whatever version they started with).

Prep is not one of GURPS strong suits. It really has a toolkit approach. However, the various supplements do have piles of ready to go templates. Also series like Action and Dungeon Fantasy go even further. e23 is your friend! Lots of awesome stuff there for a GURPS 4e GM looking to fast-track a game.

If you start a campaign with a campaign sheet, take the time to outline restricted ads/disads, skills, powers, spells, et al, and create some templates you will have a focused base to start your game. It will speed up character creation and net you characters that fit your vision for the game you want to play.

One quibble. Roll under is just as easy match wise (IMHO). All penalties and bonuses affect the skill (target number) to create your effective skill rating for that challenge. Once you have that number, you simply try and roll under it. It's "self limiting" that way. In games with add up, roll over, you can start dealing with some high numbers and multiples of numbers so I feel the time to add is a wash. Also, being able to call out "I failed by 3, or I succeeded by 6" is nice. You can interact with the players without giving away any GM secrets. :D

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Originally Posted by fmitchell

GURPS 4e does allow you to adjust secondary attributes (Will, Speed, Move, etc.) based on the primary stats (ST, DX, IQ, HT).

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That is not what I mean. I mean that I dont get 7/5/3 and pick I want 7 to go on my physical stats. This limits me, which I like, while still allowing for some flexibility.

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Originally Posted by fmitchell

I'm not sure how what you described differs from templates. Templates are just packages of advantages, disadvantages (when it makes sense), skills, and average stats. If you want to be in "Order of Hermes", the GM sets up a template for the Order of Hermes, as well as guidelines for what to spend points in (e.g. no Computers/TL 11). Templates allow GMs to customize their world, and players to build characters quickly without drinking from the firehose of options.

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So I thought about how to answer this for a good long time. What don't I like about the templates because it would appear they would be perfect on a choice vs options scale. And my answer is its not that they couldn't work its that they are not designed the way I want them. What I want is a book of say 25pt template, 50 character types then another book of the same 50 character types with 50pts, then 100pts and so on and so forth. To me that would be very useful.

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Originally Posted by trechriron

Prep is not one of GURPS strong suits. It really has a toolkit approach. However, the various supplements do have piles of ready to go templates. Also series like Action and Dungeon Fantasy go even further. e23 is your friend! Lots of awesome stuff there for a GURPS 4e GM looking to fast-track a game.

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Honestly these resources are pretty good but they are not targeting me. Dungeon Fantasy for example is wonderful if I want to play level 5-7 D&D characters. I really wanted the level 1 character templates though. I think though they will get a whole lot more sales off what they did however :)