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Farcaster
04-07-2009, 12:23 AM
So, Wizards of the Coast announced today that they have filed suits against some despicable individuals who violated copyright and redistributed PDFs they purchased of the Players Handbook 2. I say bravo to that! I somehow doubt that the persons responsible has any assets worth WotC's time to sue over, but maybe they can at least cause these people some pain and perhaps a couple decades of wage garnishment.

However, at the same time, Wizards also decided to pull the online sale of all PDFs of their material. Not only that, but they yanked all download access to materials that had already been purchased. And, with what notice? Apparently, none. Paizo sent out emails today notifying people who had access to digital books they purchased from WotC saying that their access would be terminated at 11:59PM the very same day. What time did I receive that email? 7:48PM. Bad move, Wizards. Bad move.

The fact is that there were illegal PDF copies flying around long before Wizards decided to offer digital copies of their books. In fact, its because someone was foolish enough to redistribute a PDF they bought from Wizards that had encoded information about the buyer that they were able to identify the culprit and bring a suit against them at all. I really doubt that this is going to fix anything at all. But, they have managed to tick off a lot of people.

At the very least, they should have given people who purchased their PDFs more time to make sure they had a solid backup of their copies. They deserve every ounce of the venom that has already begun to bubble up for making such a brazen, inconsiderate customer service blunder.


April 6, 2009 — Wizards of the Coast LLC today filed three lawsuits in US District Court for the Western District of Washington against eight individuals, including named defendants located in the United States, Poland and the Philippines, for copyright infringement of its recently-released Dungeons & Dragons® Player’s Handbook® 2. The lawsuits allege that the defendants illegally distributed the Player’s Handbook 2 via free file-sharing websites and that these illicit uploads resulted in a substantial number of lost sales and lost revenue to Wizards of the Coast.

“Violations of our copyrights and piracy of our products hurt not only Wizards of the Coast’s financial health but also the health of whole gaming community including retailers and players,” said Greg Leeds, President of Wizards of the Coast. “We have brought these suits to stop the illegal activities of these defendants, and to deter future unauthorized and unlawful file-sharing.”

The complaint alleges, among other things, that one or more of the defendants purchased digital copies of Player’s Handbook 2 and then illegally posted the copies onto popular file-sharing sites for free access and download by the general public.

Etarnon
04-07-2009, 03:05 AM
In the navy the saying was, "All pirates be hanged."

But a court case will do. Too bad it won't be televised.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-07-2009, 05:47 AM
Received my notice via email at 4:46pm. This didnt give me the time i needed to do what i needed to do. Just another example, in this posters opinion, the backward thinking approach towards its loyal gamers by Wotc and Hasbro.

I will say this, they have given me plenty to write about in my MBA program. They prove once again that in marketing, they're clueless, and even more amazing, they arent learning from their mistakes. Oh, please, someone buy the rights and get them out of the rpg business.

Skunkape
04-07-2009, 07:30 AM
Received my notice via email at 4:46pm. This didnt give me the time i needed to do what i needed to do. Just another example, in this posters opinion, the backward thinking approach towards its loyal gamers by Wotc and Hasbro.

I will say this, they have given me plenty to write about in my MBA program. They prove once again that in marketing, their clueless, and even more amazing, they arent learning from their mistakes. Oh, please, someone buy the rights and get them out of the rpg business.

Yeah, I gotta agree that Wizards didn't provide much notice for people to make sure they have good versions of the PDFs they purchased.

mrken
04-07-2009, 08:02 AM
Once again another reason Iam so glad I don't pump money into DnD. Way back in the day I felt this type of treatment and total disregard for my well being. They have an attitude of "Give me your freakin' money and shut up." so I dropped of their money wagon many years ago because I could.

Now, I find myself pumping money into their coffers by buying their AAM minis. Can't get off the wagon because no on else makes those stupid painted plastic minis. One day I will happen to have enough of them I won't care how stupid and vindictive they are to us, their customers. The source of ALL their money. Then I can once again stop contributing to the perpetuation of this poorly behaving bad child.

der_kluge
04-07-2009, 08:31 AM
I had previously, optimistically given WoTC about 2 years left in the RPG business before they folded. Now I may have to revise that estimate.

Yea, suing your customers = not good. Look how well that's worked out for the RIAA.

And this isn't gonna make a dent in the file-sharing problem, which I'd argue isn't really even a problem for them at all. But that's a topic for another thread.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-07-2009, 09:57 AM
Once again another reason Iam so glad I don't pump money into DnD. Way back in the day I felt this type of treatment and total disregard for my well being. They have an attitude of "Give me your freakin' money and shut up." so I dropped of their money wagon many years ago because I could.

Now, I find myself pumping money into their coffers by buying their AAM minis. Can't get off the wagon because no on else makes those stupid painted plastic minis. One day I will happen to have enough of them I won't care how stupid and vindictive they are to us, their customers. The source of ALL their money. Then I can once again stop contributing to the perpetuation of this poorly behaving bad child.
I was a huge collector/fan of Dnd. But once 4E came out, i stopped collecting. Sure, i still collect the old stuff for use one day, but they definitely changed my purchasing habits.

Otakar
04-07-2009, 10:06 AM
And this isn't gonna make a dent in the file-sharing problem, which I'd argue isn't really even a problem for them at all. But that's a topic for another thread.

I would have to agree there. I think it's a waste of time on the vendor's part. If they don't sell PDFs people will make them. If someone will spend their time making a virus for no reason other than to cause trouble someone will take their pirated copy of Adobe and make a decent PDF from copied pages. I remember seeing PDFs of the 3rd Ed stuff that looked like someone made from copies out of the book as opposed to one purchased from WotC.

I say, don't waste your time, Wizards. All my D&D acquaintances not only purchase their products legitimately but they actually go to their local game store as opposed to Amazon. The people downloading illegal PDFs probably aren't serious about the game anyway. And you sure as heck can't download minis!
:smokin:

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-07-2009, 10:30 AM
"The people downloading illegal PDFs probably aren't serious about the game anyway."

This line says it all, and i whole-heartedly agree, Otakar.

Skunkape
04-07-2009, 11:17 AM
The main thing I like about the PDFs is portability. Either I lug all of the books I need to a game, or I carry a laptop/netbook with PDFs on it. Mmmmm, choice between carrying 50 lbs of dead tree or 3 to 10 lbs of hardware with PDFs on it.

Plus side of the laptop, I can access websites with loads of 3rd party data using the laptop if I can get an internet connection, something I can't do with that 50 lbs of books.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-07-2009, 11:31 AM
The main thing I like about the PDFs is portability. Either I lug all of the books I need to a game, or I carry a laptop/netbook with PDFs on it. Mmmmm, choice between carrying 50 lbs of dead tree or 3 to 10 lbs of hardware with PDFs on it.

Plus side of the laptop, I can access websites with loads of 3rd party data using the laptop if I can get an internet connection, something I can't do with that 50 lbs of books.
True, true, Skunkape. A few years ago, it really wasnt an issue, but now it isnt uncommon for me to carry my laptop with me for the very reason you mention.

I'm still old-school, though. Me likes me books at home in tree.

Skunkape
04-07-2009, 11:33 AM
True, true, Skunkape. A few years ago, it really wasnt an issue, but now it isnt uncommon for me to carry my laptop with me for the very reason you mention.

I'm still old-school, though. Me likes me books at home in tree.

Oh, I still prefer books over PDFs, but I'd rather have those books at home, than at an away game!:D

kirksmithicus
04-07-2009, 11:37 AM
I wonder how many customers they loose vs. those they gain because of file sharing. Anyway, I'm sure they'll put all of their PDF's back up eventually. My guess is they are looking into some way to further secure their online products against piracy.

InMediaRes
04-07-2009, 11:41 AM
I be playing my RPGs on dual screens, maps and Books to ancient treasure before me. Yarr, WotC be a scurvy dogg, there be many open source games in the vast ocean I sail.... vengeful privateers shant hang me, and my mates are blessed by great joy served with casks of ale and wenches... I say to the foamy brine with the wizards.....Yarr.....Harr....

cplmac
04-07-2009, 12:05 PM
Actually, legally purchased items could come back to haunt them in the butt. Unless the purchase price is returned, they are setting themselves up for a nice class action lawsuit by those who legal purchased items. Just some info for those who are now without out access to items that have been paid for.

Also, for those who may have just recently made a purchase, if you used a credit card for the purchase, you may be able to get assistance from the card issuer.

mrken
04-07-2009, 12:21 PM
For some reason I don't really see the problem here. Generally speaking, I much prefer the dead tree version of all works. But there are times I feel I need something that I can't get a "real" copy of. Just a few weeks ago I purchased two "books" in PDF format for just this reason. I have those books on my computer. I also have a copy of both and the rest of my gaming stuff burned to disk. Where is the problem? You buy it, you download it, you copy it to disk. Shoot, if you want to you can even print the darn thing, but that makes buying it on PDF a mute point. Course, I do wish I could have bought the dead tree version instead. :(

If anyone (yeah, like this will ever happen) sues WotC over this issue, they will toss up this roadblock immediately, and then wait for another lawsuit to happen.

kirksmithicus
04-07-2009, 12:36 PM
Apparently some people were relying on WotC and other PDF selling sites as a backup for their PDF's, instead of taking more reasonable measures. It appears they were under the impression they could get free file storage of purchased products from these sites in perpetuity?

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-07-2009, 02:11 PM
Good point, but WotC giving us so little time to take care of business only leaves us with a bad taste in our mouths. Professionalism demanded a bit more notice.

kirksmithicus
04-07-2009, 02:22 PM
Good point, but WotC giving us so little time to take care of business only leaves us with a bad taste in our mouths. Professionalism demanded a bit more notice.
Sure, that would have been nice. I'm guessing they assumed the opposite of my previous post. Which is, that people who purchase PDF's save them to their hard drives when they purchase them. I'll also wager they didn't even consider it an issue.

Mindbomb
04-07-2009, 03:04 PM
Apparently I'm the only one on this site that will download a book before I decide if I'm going to buy it.(I highly doubt that) But I don't allow anything but the paper at my game table and wizards isn't hurting from me getting my copies early and deciding if I want to use it or not. Frag the barmy berks....

kirksmithicus
04-07-2009, 03:11 PM
Apparently I'm the only one on this site that will download a book before I decide if I'm going to buy it.(I highly doubt that) But I don't allow anything but the paper at my game table and wizards isn't hurting from me getting my copies early and deciding if I want to use it or not. Frag the barmy berks....

No, I too borrowed a copy of the PHB from 20,000 of my closest online friends before I bought the hard copy.

fmitchell
04-07-2009, 03:31 PM
Generally I prefer dead trees, but legal downloads can be the cheaper alternative. I haven't downloaded a book illegally; usually I look at reviews before I buy, and then find the best online discount.

What honks me off about WotC's panic decision is that they also pulled the A/B/OD&D material, which is now out of print and hella expensive to acquire. Anything they make on scans on a discontinued, out-of-print product is free money, less any hosting fees. (Then again, maybe they're using the Microsoft playbook of discontinuing all previous versions of their product to push the current version, 'cuz that worked so well.)

cigamnogard
04-07-2009, 07:39 PM
I have always bought 3.0 & 3.5 books but I have no interest in the 4.0 line. However, I know a tonne of people who have illegal and legal versions of 4.0 and simply refused to purchase another "new" system when they had spent so much $ on the last version.
Personally, I am sticking with my falling apart 3.5 book and waiting to buy the 5.0 books when they come out.

mrken
04-07-2009, 08:51 PM
Think I will hold out for 7.5.30.7. lol

Law Dog
04-07-2009, 08:57 PM
As and adult and a law enforcer, the last thing I respect is some bunch of jerkwater yahoos having kneejerk overreactions. You do not crap on your customer base. WoTC needs to rethink acting like a bunch of spoiled brats or they are going to get a reputation like Palladium.

kirksmithicus
04-07-2009, 09:01 PM
Think I will hold out for 7.5.30.7. (http://catrpg.awardspace.com/CatRPG.pdf) lol

I added the link.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-07-2009, 09:10 PM
As and adult and a law enforcer, the last thing I respect is some bunch of jerkwater yahoos having kneejerk overreactions. You do not crap on your customer base. WoTC needs to rethink acting like a bunch of spoiled brats or they are going to get a reputation like Palladium.
Well said, Law Dog. Though doubful they will ever learn.

kimokeo
04-07-2009, 09:29 PM
I prefer to buy the hardcopy. Problem is, the only book store I know in my area that sells the book won't display them. They told me the books were being stolen out of the store, so they're not on display and they want orders for the books because of it.

Thieves have no idea the damage they do to us all. I can't even view the book to see if I'm interested in 4.0 I had hoped to have a chance to at least look at it. I was turned off to 3.0 when it came out. It just didn't look like D&D to me.

3.5 changed all that.

4.0? I don't know. I haven't seen the book to make a decision to buy - but I still want to see it first before I buy it. oh well...

mrken
04-07-2009, 09:36 PM
As and adult and a law enforcer, the last thing I respect is some bunch of jerkwater yahoos having kneejerk overreactions. You do not crap on your customer base. WoTC needs to rethink acting like a bunch of spoiled brats or they are going to get a reputation like Palladium.


Law Dog, you got it backwards. Palladium borrowed the rap from WotC. :(

Law Dog
04-08-2009, 02:46 AM
Law Dog, you got it backwards. Palladium borrowed the rap from WotC. :(

Maybe they took it from WotC, added in some house rules, and marketed it as a completely different reputation and then claimed copyright infringement anytime anybody said anything about it, all under the advice of their late-night television huckster lawyer? :D

mrken
04-08-2009, 07:43 AM
Maybe they took it from WotC, added in some house rules, and marketed it as a completely different reputation and then claimed copyright infringement anytime anybody said anything about it, all under the advice of their late-night television huckster lawyer? :D


Thank you for the good laugh this early in the morning. Best way to start the day. lol

Otakar
04-08-2009, 09:44 AM
Maybe I'm really naive here but I just can't think that this is a huge issue. I like the PDFs for portability and to be able to print out pages and I did use it for making attack/ability cards (which I see they now sell) but I absolutely could not do without a hard copy of the books. I can't take my laptop into the can with me for some quiet reading away from the wife and kids. If there are no seats on the commuter train I sure can't use a laptop. Plus the PDF search function isn't all that great. I can flip through a book and find what I'm looking for quicker than going through that. I think WotC should be bold and offer a PDF disk along with the purchase of the book. Maybe that would actually generate more interest. Unless you're going to print the thing out at work it doesn't seem cost effective to do that over owning the hardcover. Life's not that difficult. Where's my dice. I need to game! :)

GoddessGood
04-08-2009, 10:19 AM
This latest news release (http://www.white-wolf.com/index.php?articleid=1085) from White Wolf is making me wonder ... are they being altruistic or opportunistic? They're offering a free download of the core book for Exalted 2e and a 10% discount off PDFs sold starting today through April 12th via DriveThruRPG.com. The code to enter is "wwlovesyou". I mean, it's great and all, but ... it smacks of something less than pure in the motivation department.

fmitchell
04-08-2009, 10:24 AM
This latest news release (http://www.white-wolf.com/index.php?articleid=1085) from White Wolf is making me wonder ... are they being altruistic or opportunistic?

Yes.

GoddessGood
04-08-2009, 10:26 AM
Yes.
Lol, the hipocrasy angle comes in through the tone of the press release. "Because we love you guys so much," etc. ... you know the BS is several inches deep and you're going to need your wading boots.

Law Dog
04-08-2009, 10:28 AM
Maybe I'm really naive here but I just can't think that this is a huge issue. I like the PDFs for portability and to be able to print out pages and I did use it for making attack/ability cards (which I see they now sell) but I absolutely could not do without a hard copy of the books. I can't take my laptop into the can with me for some quiet reading away from the wife and kids. If there are no seats on the commuter train I sure can't use a laptop. Plus the PDF search function isn't all that great. I can flip through a book and find what I'm looking for quicker than going through that. I think WotC should be bold and offer a PDF disk along with the purchase of the book. Maybe that would actually generate more interest. Unless you're going to print the thing out at work it doesn't seem cost effective to do that over owning the hardcover. Life's not that difficult. Where's my dice. I need to game! :)

Not to derail the conversation or gross anybody out, but you can take both the Kindle and the iPhone onto the crapper and both of them can handle PDF's.

Times they are a'changin.

Farcaster
04-08-2009, 10:32 AM
the Kindle and the iPhone ... can handle PDF's.

Although the Kindle may be able to handle a converted PDF, it doesn't actually read that format. The problem is also that the Kindle just doesn't work well for rules and reference books. I know, because I tried. The small screen works against it making it impossible to make good use of tables. And the search functionality is still a bit too kludgy, so getting to a particular page can be cumbersome. Don't get me wrong, I love my Kindle, but it isn't where it needs to be to handle gaming books.

GoddessGood
04-08-2009, 10:33 AM
Not to derail the conversation or gross anybody out, but you can take both the Kindle and the iPhone onto the crapper and both of them can handle PDF's.

Times they are a'changin.
As xkcd pointed out, with a kindle or iPhone that gets wikipedia ... you have yourself the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, mark 1. I hear the iPhone even has a screensaver available that says "Don't Panic" on it in big, friendly letters.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-08-2009, 10:39 AM
Although the Kindle may be able to handle a converted PDF, it doesn't actually read that format. The problem is also that the Kindle just doesn't work well for rules and reference books. I know, because I tried. The small screen works against it making it impossible to make good use of tables. And the search functionality is still a bit too kludgy, so getting to a particular page can be cumbersome. Don't get me wrong, I love my Kindle, but it isn't where it needs to be to handle gaming books.
I've wondered about this. Glad you said something, Farcaster.

Law Dog
04-08-2009, 11:05 AM
Although the Kindle may be able to handle a converted PDF, it doesn't actually read that format. The problem is also that the Kindle just doesn't work well for rules and reference books. I know, because I tried. The small screen works against it making it impossible to make good use of tables. And the search functionality is still a bit too kludgy, so getting to a particular page can be cumbersome. Don't get me wrong, I love my Kindle, but it isn't where it needs to be to handle gaming books.

Without a doubt, you are correct. The iPhone is even harder to use like this, but it is amazingly readable considering it's size.

But for reading while commuting on a train, bus or what have you, or in the loo, you actually use it for reading PDF's.

On a side note, Kindle for iPhone has been nice for me recently to read fiction in places where carrying a book would be cumbersome.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-08-2009, 11:35 AM
My concern about kindle are the reading choices. I love fantasy and science fiction novels, but i am particular about which i read. I'd also like to pdf some of my old books and wondered it the software would let me download my own copied books onto it.

Farcaster
04-08-2009, 11:48 AM
I'd also like to pdf some of my old books and wondered it the software would let me download my own copied books onto it.

You should be able to, yes. As to the selection, you could always browse the current book list (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBooks-Kindle%2Fb%3Fie%3DUTF8%26node%3D154606011%26ref%25 5F%3Dsv%255Fkinc%255F1&tag=penandpaperga-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957) and see if the authors and publishers you enjoy are publishing books digitally.

tesral
04-08-2009, 12:23 PM
The main thing I like about the PDFs is portability. Either I lug all of the books I need to a game, or I carry a laptop/netbook with PDFs on it. Mmmmm, choice between carrying 50 lbs of dead tree or 3 to 10 lbs of hardware with PDFs on it.

Plus side of the laptop, I can access websites with loads of 3rd party data using the laptop if I can get an internet connection, something I can't do with that 50 lbs of books.

My son does that. He has his whole library in the computer. I prefer dead tree. I understand the reasoning however.

And as to the comments about the advisability of browning off the customer base. Ayup, but they still do it.

The PDFs are pure profit for them. They charge as much as the dead tree works, but need print nothing. The main reason I have never bought any. Well aside from not wanting Forry books.

And, once again, if it is not on you hard drive or on your shelf, you do not own it. Do not trust any web based service to hold your data for you.


Although the Kindle may be able to handle a converted PDF, it doesn't actually read that format. The problem is also that the Kindle just doesn't work well for rules and reference books.

There are other issues with the Kindle as well. The lack of portability, of the format not the device. A tablet computer would do as well if not better for the task.

Battery life is also still an issue and doesn't look to be going away any time soon, that that goes for any portable device, I'm not picking on the Kindle here.

For the price of a Kindle I can buy a netbook which does more.

GoddessGood
04-08-2009, 12:26 PM
My son does that. He has his whole library in the computer. I prefer dead tree. I understand the reasoning however.

And as to the comments about the advisability of browning off the customer base. Ayup, but they still do it.

The PDFs are pure profit for them. They charge as much as the dead tree works, but need print nothing. The main reason I have never bought any. Well aside from not wanting Forry books.

And, once again, if it is not on you hard drive or on your shelf, you do not own it. Do not trust any web based service to hold your data for you.
This is why there is a copy of every pdf I own on every computer I own within 24 hours of me purchasing it. Should (god forbid) the internet explode, me and my .pdfs are backed up.

tesral
04-08-2009, 12:39 PM
This is why there is a copy of every pdf I own on every computer I own within 24 hours of me purchasing it. Should (god forbid) the internet explode, me and my .pdfs are backed up.

The three most important words in computing. "Backup, backup, backup." I have heard people wail again and again when some on-line service they "depended" on goes down the tubes, and their data with it. I have no sympathy.

GoddessGood
04-08-2009, 12:48 PM
The three most important words in computing. "Backup, backup, backup." I have heard people wail again and again when some on-line service they "depended" on goes down the tubes, and their data with it. I have no sympathy.
I've got to find that bumper sticker I bought years ago. It said, "Always backup data, Even Jesus saves."

tesral
04-08-2009, 12:49 PM
I've got to find that bumper sticker I bought years ago. It said, "Always backup data, Even Jesus saves."

I need one of those.

Law Dog
04-08-2009, 01:09 PM
The three most important words in computing. "Backup, backup, backup." I have heard people wail again and again when some on-line service they "depended" on goes down the tubes, and their data with it. I have no sympathy.


Amen. With the price of thumb drives getting down to where they can practically put them in cereal boxes, there is no excuse for not saving backups.

Mindbomb
04-08-2009, 01:35 PM
I've got to find that bumper sticker I bought years ago. It said, "Always backup data, Even Jesus saves."
And only takes half damage...

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-08-2009, 02:15 PM
You should be able to, yes. As to the selection, you could always browse the current book list (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBooks-Kindle%2Fb%3Fie%3DUTF8%26node%3D154606011%26ref%25 5F%3Dsv%255Fkinc%255F1&tag=penandpaperga-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957) and see if the authors and publishers you enjoy are publishing books digitally.
Thanks for the link, Farcaster. Purusing begun.

cigamnogard
04-08-2009, 03:41 PM
I added the link.
Can I play as a Snufle?

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-08-2009, 03:43 PM
Snufle?

cigamnogard
04-08-2009, 03:59 PM
See the link in post #26. It's cute:biggrin:

tesral
04-08-2009, 05:31 PM
Amen. With the price of thumb drives getting down to where they can practically put them in cereal boxes, there is no excuse for not saving backups.

You are not just whistling Dixie there buddy. You should pay more than 10 bucks for 4 gig or less. 16 gig for 25 dollars.

Never mind that Hard drives are dirt cheap. I've seen 1 terabyte drives for under 100 dollars. I personally have a 500 gig drive in my computer, and a second 500 gig drive as a backup. I built mine last year. Prices have dropped to that degree.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-08-2009, 10:32 PM
Even better: If you dont have the fundage to get thumb drives, then pdf them and email them to yourself. Saved forever, they are. As Yoda would say.

tesral
04-08-2009, 11:31 PM
Even better: If you dont have the fundage to get thumb drives, then pdf them and email them to yourself. Saved forever, they are. As Yoda would say.

We are back to depending on the web again.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-09-2009, 12:44 AM
We are back to depending on the web again.
Hard copies are always best, i agree, tesral. But if you absolutely must use the internet, then emailing them is your best option.

GoddessGood
04-09-2009, 08:11 AM
Unless of course you have a limit of 10 MB per attachment. Some of those PDFs are freaking hueg.

Otakar
04-09-2009, 09:05 AM
Even better: If you dont have the fundage to get thumb drives, then pdf them and email them to yourself. Saved forever, they are. As Yoda would say.

Love Yoda talk, I do.:D

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-09-2009, 10:05 AM
Unless of course you have a limit of 10 MB per attachment. Some of those PDFs are freaking hueg.
Theres plenty of sites on the net that allows you to send large files for free. Heck, if you need something even bigger than what they offer for free, then throw the company a few bucks, and in return you will be allowed to send files larger than you ever needed. I'd list a link to one of two but am too lazy to find it on my favorites list.

tesral
04-09-2009, 10:32 AM
Or you can make a nice cozy spot on your totally huge and inexpensive back up drive.

GoddessGood
04-09-2009, 10:35 AM
Or you can make a nice cozy spot on your totally huge and expensive back up drive.
No, silly that thing is just for storing ... well ... nevermind ;)

Skunkape
04-09-2009, 12:08 PM
No, silly that thing is just for storing ... well ... nevermind ;)

:lol:

cigamnogard
04-09-2009, 02:02 PM
:confused:........oh.....:redface:.....:lol:

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-09-2009, 02:33 PM
:lol:........oh.....:redface:.....:confused:

tesral
04-09-2009, 03:08 PM
:focus: :amen:



I can do it too.

So, any updates on how much Lizards like the taste of its own feet?

cigamnogard
04-09-2009, 03:46 PM
Pardon?

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-09-2009, 03:49 PM
:focus: :amen:



I can do it too.

So, any updates on how much Lizards like the taste of its own feet?
None. But doubtful they'd share anyhow. We may not agree on everything, but we do agree on our perception of Lizards!

agoraderek
04-09-2009, 04:30 PM
Law Dog, you got it backwards. Palladium borrowed the rap from WotC. :(

Well, I just thought WotC was using that paragon of customer service, Games Workshop's, playbook...
--- Merged from Double Post ---

3.5 changed all that.

What was it about 3.5 that seemed so different than 3.0? One minute/level buffs rather than one hour/level buffs? I'm curious, as 3.5 was basically just a massive errata...

tesral
04-09-2009, 05:08 PM
Well, I just thought WotC was using that paragon of customer service, Games Workshop's, playbook....

Palladium is a well known bad player. How they stay in business is beyond me. Their "give me that and I may someday pay you for it" contract is a perfect example. Yes, I read it. I would give them the time of day. That minute would never be seen again.

I'm not familiar with Game's Workshop as I don't buy their materials. Too pricy and I don't like most of it.

cigamnogard
04-09-2009, 05:21 PM
The novels are good but the game books meh...

mrken
04-09-2009, 08:55 PM
I like their cheap plastic minis. But not all of their minis are cheap.

tesral
04-09-2009, 09:15 PM
I like their cheap plastic minis. But not all of their minis are cheap.

No the big ones can run some money. That said I have all of the Icon dragons. Beautiful pieces. And I like the small cheap ones too.

nijineko
04-10-2009, 04:05 AM
i'll still likely finish off my 3.x collection... and then buy gurps. i have pdf backups of every hardcopy book i own. which are themselves backed up on hard media. multiple times.

yukonhorror
04-10-2009, 01:47 PM
Came across this, copied from WOTC forums:

Steve Wieck with DriveThruRPG/RPGNow here.
I thought I would respond to a couple items discussed on the thread.

First, there are no "contract negotiations" with Wizards that led to the current situation. We have been doing business with Wizards on downloads for over six years now and always enjoyed a positive and co-operative license relationship. The thread's hypothesis that the situation might be a result of a negotiation issue is a reasonable hypothesis but is incorrect.

On Monday I spoke with Wizards' legal department in a call that I thought would discuss the lawsuits Wizards has filed. We had been co-operating with Wizards to supply information on pirated files for those lawsuits (as allowed under our site privacy policy). Instead I was informed of Wizards' decision to cease all PDF sales at this time. It was a complete surprise to me.

Wizards gave us legal notice to remove their titles. Due to what I'll characterize as a miscommunication on intent, we complied immediately and removed all public access to Wizards' products from DriveThruRPG and RPGNow. In turns out this was not a situation that either we or Wizards desired. I am in discussions with Wizards legal and it looks highly probable that we will be able to offer customers time to come back and re-download prior purchases for their personal archives. We will email and post information on sites once we have final confirmation on this.

I regret that some customers have inferred that our download counts are any guarantee of availability to re-download titles. We really do not like iTunes' approach of "one download, you lose it, pay again" so we do our best to offer perpetual downloads of purchased titles. Our agreements with publishers though do not let us guarantee this - as this situation makes clear. We have learned a lesson here by reading that some customers inferred otherwise, and we will make some changes soon to clarify this on DriveThruRPG and RPGNow.

We are offering full refunds to anyone who purchased a Wizards title from us but never downloaded it. These are extremely rare cases, as most everyone downloaded the goodies as soon as they were originally purchased.

I am otherwise as confused as anyone else here on the rationale behind Wizards' decision. I know there are some smart people at Wizards like Scott who get it, so I can only speculate that there are others who are not as informed and who are making the call on this.

As many other folks on this forum have stated, I also believe that piracy for the foreseeable future is unavoidable for books. So long as printed copies and scanners and torrents exist, rpg books have been and will be pirated. It's sad and fatalistic, but it's true.

Given that rpg books will always be on file-sharing sites, it means that anyone who purchases a legal PDF is doing so because they prefer to make that choice over pirating the file. Thankfully, the number of rpg fans who make that decision are legion and it lets us send payments every month to hundreds of rpg publishers and creators. By making this choice to legally support thier hobby, fans are keeping rpgs alive. I say that without one bit of exaggeration or melodrama. Around seven new rpg titles go live every day at DriveThruRPG and RPGNow. The hobby could not be nearly that prolific if not due to fans choosing to support their hobby.

This makes DRM an extremely poor choice for any publisher. DRM inevitably restricts ease of purchase and ease of use, and anything that tips customer choice from legal purchase toward pirating is a bad business decision. DRM does nothing to prevent pirated files from being available, since the files will already be available anyway from scanned copy.

We already learned lessons on DRM the hard way in the past, so I know the issue intimately. For many years now, we have embraced watermarking as the preferable solution.

The posts by D&D fans across all gaming forums, while angry at times, are ultimately posted out of concern for Wizards and the desire to see Wizards make the best choices. Whether I ever do business with Wizards again or not, Wizards is a big part of the hobby that I love and for that reason alone, I hope that they reconsider. Especially given the ongoing fan feedback on this, I am optimistic that they will.

Steve

InMediaRes
04-10-2009, 03:44 PM
My basement flooded a few weeks back, lots of stuff destroyed, old books, electronics, you name it. A friend of mine had the opposite problem of a fire in their basement. When backing up, hard copies are great, as are the amazing multi-terabyte drives.

As long as you're being protective of the money you've spent, though, there's no reason not to take advantage of file storage online. If some catastrophe takes down your computer, you're still protected. If some other catastrophe arises that devours the interweb, you're still safe.

Of course, your game books won't be safe in the event of armageddon, so I would also research astral projection and teleportation. Scouts Motto: Always be prepared ;)

tesral
04-10-2009, 09:09 PM
Off site backups are good too, as long as you don't depend on one backup.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
04-10-2009, 09:55 PM
My basement flooded a few weeks back, lots of stuff destroyed, old books, electronics, you name it. A friend of mine had the opposite problem of a fire in their basement. When backing up, hard copies are great, as are the amazing multi-terabyte drives.

As long as you're being protective of the money you've spent, though, there's no reason not to take advantage of file storage online. If some catastrophe takes down your computer, you're still protected. If some other catastrophe arises that devours the interweb, you're still safe.

Of course, your game books won't be safe in the event of armageddon, so I would also research astral projection and teleportation. Scouts Motto: Always be prepared ;)
You have my sympathies. Had it happen once to me years ago.

mrken
04-11-2009, 07:55 AM
We bought a house near the top of the hill. Can't say I fully understand your situation, but I can imagine your pain. :( My condolences.

yukonhorror
04-11-2009, 08:41 PM
As a special update, we have an exclusive interview with Wizards of the Coast's President, Greg Leeds. This interview focuses on the events of the past week, specifically the decision to withdraw PDF versions of products from sale. Special thanks goes to EN World members for suggesting questions.

1. Please tell us the reasons for the new policy on PDF sales. Is this a strategic business decision, a response to piracy, or a combination of the two?
The decision was made for both reasons. The piracy of our products was increasing at an alarming rate, and we felt that it could have a negative impact not only to Wizards of the Coast, but to the hobby industry as a whole.
2. Is online piracy a continuing annoyance for Wizards, a substantial concern, or something between the two? Are there estimates of lost sales figures that you can share?
The piracy became a substantial concern when we saw thousands of copies of our recently released Player’s Handbook 2 being downloaded illegally within hours of its release. We cannot share sales figures, but I can tell you that we conservatively estimate the ratio of illicit downloads to legally purchased copies was 10:1.
3. The decision to revoke PDFs means that Wizards no longer provides any method to acquire out-of-print books such as material from older editions. Is there any plan to resume allowing customers access to copies of these works through Wizards, or will legitimate customers have to go through out-of-print channels to acquire these products? If the latter is true, why would Wizards choose to avoid providing this access?
We do not have any plans to resume the sale of PDFs, but are actively exploring other options for the digital distribution of our content – including older editions. We understand that digital content is important to our customers.
4. Some D&D customers are frustrated because they see this sales policy as a step backwards, punishing the customers who choose to legally acquire electronic Wizards products while not significantly affecting online book piracy. What’s your opinion on this issue, and what effect do you anticipate that the new PDF sales policy will have on piracy?
While we understand that our actions will not eliminate piracy all together, we don’t want to make it easy to acquire illegally, either. We need to have a strong retail base in order to support (and grow) the hobby industry. We hope to deter future offenders – or at least slow down their path to obtaining illegal products.
5. Online retailers received notice of the new policy less than 24 hours before PDF sales were required to cease. Why wasn't the cessation of PDF sales announced with more than a few hours before the materials were no longer available?
It wasn’t our intention to have customers feel as though they weren’t receiving what they paid for. Our understanding is that both Paizo Publishing and OneBookShelf are working with their customers to make sure they receive what they paid for.
6. If you had the last few years to live over again and could completely revamp Wizards’ PDF and electronic media strategy from the ground up, what would you do differently?
I don’t know that I would try to re-do anything. The truth is that the world is changing quickly, and as a business we need to be flexible enough to adapt to that changing environment. We have and always will continue to find the best ways to be responsive to our community of fans and gamers.
7. What strategies can you share with us that you’re pursuing to further increase sales and market penetration?
We are very happy with how 4th Edition is performing. We have reprinted the 4th Edition Player’s Handbook three times, and PH2 is headed back for it’s second printing already. Ultimately our goal is to keep the hobby industry strong, and our strategy for that is to continue to create great 4th Edition products that will entice our fans to keep playing D&D. In turn, that will grow the hobby industry.
8. What’s your vision for the role of electronic media in D&D? How do you plan to get there, and how long do you suspect it might take to implement? What priority is this being given?
Electronic media will continue to play an even greater role in our D&D business as the months and years go on. Continuing to improve the D&D Insider experience for our customers and fans is one of our top priorities.

Along with the rest of the publishing industry, Wizards is also looking into new means of digital distribution. For our novels, we have recently introduced titles to Kindle and to Sony’s E-Reader and will continue to add titles to those offerings over the coming months.

9. We don’t know much about Wizards’ internal operations. Did the new PDF policy decision originate from you, from your legal team, from the brand manager and his team, or from Hasbro corporate headquarters? Generally speaking, how hands-on is your management of the D&D team and its strategic plan?
The D&D brand is critical to Wizards of the Coast’s success, and decisions such as this are not entered into lightly. We are all very hands-on, and decisions are vetted through all levels of the organization.

A quick clarification from WotC regarding the answer to Question 2, above:

The 10:1 ratio that Greg references is for PDFs only – it has nothing to do with the physical books. For every one PDF purchased legally, there were at least 10 downloaded illegally. And yes, we can track it.

Silverthorne
04-12-2009, 05:58 AM
Oh yes they can track it. person buys a copy of the book in dead tree and then downloads a pdf so that they have the portability. That is illegal according to RIAA and Wizards apparently..

Baldwin Stonewood
04-12-2009, 09:06 AM
Amen. With the price of thumb drives getting down to where they can practically put them in cereal boxes, there is no excuse for not saving backups.

I have always backed up my material on an external hard drive but I just purchased a thumb drive, on Friday, for additional portability and backup. I feel like Fred Flintstone coming out of the stoneage with this thumbdrive stuff.

tesral
04-12-2009, 11:37 AM
Oh yes they can track it. person buys a copy of the book in dead tree and then downloads a pdf so that they have the portability. That is illegal according to RIAA and Wizards apparently..

The RIAA is doing serious research into charging you for the song stuck in your head, and making sure everyone humming a tune on the street pays royalties for the performance. They are another issue.



I have always backed up my material on an external hard drive but I just purchased a thumb drive, on Friday, for additional portability and backup. I feel like Fred Flintstone coming out of the stone age with this thumb drive stuff.

Welcome to the 21st century. I keep an external hard drive as well. It's much larger than any thumb drive I own and I have a goodly number of them.

Sascha
04-12-2009, 08:49 PM
The RIAA is doing serious research into charging you for the song stuck in your head, and making sure everyone humming a tune on the street pays royalties for the performance. They are another issue.
I read a paper on the technical violations one can potentially accrue over a standard day, "Infringement Nation: Copyright Reform and the Law/Norm Gap" by John Tehranian. The author's sum came to ~$12.4 million, for just that: humming or singing a tune in the shower, playing your radio loud enough for others to hear ("public performance" I believe was the cited violation for both), etc. using the RIAA's lawsuit claims as precedent.

tesral
04-13-2009, 09:20 AM
On one had I understand the right of the producer to ask for and receive payment for their work. I agree with this. If you create something, you have the right to hide it, sell it give it away, your choice. If you choose ot sell it to set the price.

That said, the recording industry are vampires sucking the life out of both the artist and the consumer. Worse, I see the publishing industry yearning to go the same way. They would love to destroy the right of first sale. Something even the recording industry has not been about to do.

Digital formats just take the existing laws and practices and toss them down the toilet. Why, the very nature of the medium means that it can be copied endlessly and at zero cost.

To print a book or stamp a CD costs money. You need the machines, the materials and so forth. Once you have that object, you have an object. Right of first sale holds. Once you sell it to me, I can can do with it as I see fit. Read or listen to it, burn it, leave it in the street, or even sell it again. It's that last one that makes them howl. Every used copy of an album out there they see as a cut in the sales of a new one.

Digital media, very different. I buy a song off itunes I have a digital copy. DRM aside (another issue) I can copy that song endlessly. Every player I have can have its own copy.

Now the Betamax decision means you have the right to backup your digital media. (They hate that one too.) So I have the legal right to have multiple copies of anything digital I have paid for, be that the Lord of the Rings DVD or Windows XP. Now, If I exercise my right of first sale, and pass either down the line, all copies have to go with it. That is the legal way to do it.

But you don't have to. That is the "problem" Digital copies copy with perfect fidelity every time. You have an Analog tape of Dark Side of the Moon? A copy of a copy of a copy sounds bad. It loses fidelity with ever copy. Replicant fading Rip the song off a CD and copy the copy a hundred times it is the same as the first copy.

The recording vampires were not too worried about taping off analog sources because of that loss. However digital scares them. They killed digital tape in the US because if it. The CD burner came in under the radar because it was the CD/ROM, a computer device. Computers didn't play music. Or so they thought.

Now the publishers are facing the same hurdles. People are getting used to reading off a screen. Some of us still are not fond of it, but we do it. Books in digital format are making inroads. The publishing houses are looking at the lessons of the recording industry and making the same mistakes.

So far all the devices I have seen go too far to protect the publisher. The Kindle being a perfect example. If I want to rent books, I'll go to the library. They lend them for free.

The whole rant comes down to Lizards is making the wrong move. Taking away PDFs is not going to stop PDF distribution in the least, it won't even slow it down. They will just get zero income instead of some income. PHB2 is out there. Not selling it to anyone else will not get the horse back into the barn.

Second is the cost issue. I saw the price they wanted for their PDF copies. No way am I paying the printed cost for a digital version. I know all too well that PDF is pure profit. It costs nothing to "make another one" to sell. So I'm not going to pay for it, or have it for that matter. I want my books in dead tree.

fmitchell
04-13-2009, 12:24 PM
Taking away PDFs is not going to stop PDF distribution in the least, it won't even slow it down. They will just get zero income instead of some income. PHB2 is out there. Not selling it to anyone else will not get the horse back into the barn.

Second is the cost issue. I saw the price they wanted for their PDF copies. No way am I paying the printed cost for a digital version. I know all too well that PDF is pure profit. It costs nothing to "make another one" to sell. So I'm not going to pay for it, or have it for that matter. I want my books in dead tree.

Unfortunately, in the screwy mathematics of corporations, every illegal download is a lost retail sale. They never consider that not everyone wants to meet their price, or that not everyone would buy the product even if they had a chance to read/listen/watch even a portion of it.

My own rules for downloads and bootlegs are as follows:


First, I ascertain whether what I want is available legally, from an available supplier.

If it's an episode of a broadcast TV show, downloading is no worse than taping it off the TV, only I didn't tape it personally. (Time-Shifting)

If I download a TV show not available in my area, such as Doctor Who, I've committed to buy the DVD when it becomes available. (Time-Shifting ... from the future)

If the item is out of print and extremely unlikely to go back in print, downloading/bootlegging is no more immoral than buying a used copy from somewhere, only without the exorbitant price. (Right of First Sale)

If I download or bootleg I thought was permanently unavailable, and it becomes available, such as the U.S. version of a Japanese CD, I'll buy the new version if I still play it, or won't if I don't. (Fansubber's Code)

Honestly, I don't follow these rules for the publishers, but for the artists who get royalties. If writers, musicians, and other artists had a "tip-jar", I'd gladly contribute to it for everything I bought and enjoyed: new, used, or bootlegged.

Farcaster
04-13-2009, 12:33 PM
No way am I paying the printed cost for a digital version. I know all too well that PDF is pure profit. It costs nothing to "make another one" to sell. So I'm not going to pay for it, or have it for that matter. I want my books in dead tree.

I do agree that the PDF should be significantly less expensive than the printed version, simply because the costs of production and distribution are minimized. However, there is still some cost involved - profit sharing with the sites that were selling them, bandwidth, and the cost of customer service support for downloaded products come readily to mind.

Nonetheless, I concede the point that the PDFs were way over priced.

fmitchell
04-13-2009, 12:51 PM
Nonetheless, I concede the point that the PDFs were way over priced.

One factor in my decision whether to buy a PDF is whether I could find the dead-tree version cheaper somewhere else, including postage. In the case of WotC, I always went dead tree. Between Amazon's markdowns and the used market, it didn't take a lot of research to decide.

The only advantages the PDF format has are cost per unit, portability, and speedy delivery. So, unless I need a D&D product RIGHT NOW, I don't see why I should pay full retail for something I can get for at least 30% off by waiting a week or so. Given how few D&D products I actually buy, the extra weight on my bookshelf or in my backpack isn't a significant deterrent. (I also have trouble reading long double-column books on my computer, so dead-tree format is a plus.)

tesral
04-13-2009, 01:54 PM
I do agree that the PDF should be significantly less expensive than the printed version, simply because the costs of production and distribution are minimized. However, there is still some cost involved - profit sharing with the sites that were selling them, bandwidth, and the cost of customer service support for downloaded products come readily to mind.

Nonetheless, I concede the point that the PDFs were way over priced.

I whole heartedly agree, there is the blood, sweat, toil, and tears of actually making the book happen. I am familiar with that process on an empirical level. I choose to give my work away. Other's are dedicated to making a profit. Their work, their choice. If I want it I'll pay for it.



One factor in my decision whether to buy a PDF is whether I could find the dead-tree version cheaper somewhere else, including postage. In the case of WotC, I always went dead tree. Between Amazon's markdowns and the used market, it didn't take a lot of research to decide.

The only advantages the PDF format has are cost per unit, portability, and speedy delivery. So, unless I need a D&D product RIGHT NOW, I don't see why I should pay full retail for something I can get for at least 30% off by waiting a week or so. Given how few D&D products I actually buy, the extra weight on my bookshelf or in my backpack isn't a significant deterrent. (I also have trouble reading long double-column books on my computer, so dead-tree format is a plus.)

Amazon market place is the RPG book lover's paradise. I have bough nearly all my D&D books and GRUPS books off Amazon, seldom paying more than half price. I just got a Star Trek fanboy resource book, OOP for 3 bucks. I replaced a long lost copy of the Fuzzy Papers for a buck 25. All of that hard copy mind you.

Even with the above BSTT I will not pay better than half price for any PDF. I'll do without first. When I consider I could print the Forry Player's manual for 10 bucks, sans binding, toner and Paper only. Binding at Kinkos to get a justified bind, which I cannot do would be another 6 bucks. So I'm looking at 16 dollars for a soft cover version of the book, laser printed on 20 pound paper. Both of which are better than anything Lizards is using. They are using cheap ink and cheaper paper, printing in China and have the advantage of volume.

Distribution, advertising and other non-production related expenses I can't factor in. I have no idea what they pay.

Nocturne
05-15-2009, 02:14 PM
NO! They screw over their fans, and their fans screw them back? I'm shocked and appalled.

Panthro82
05-15-2009, 05:41 PM
This wouldn't have happened if the economy wasn't in the position it is in right now. WOTC is clutching at straws trying to find any money at all to keep them afloat. They are trying to keep their profits, but they are doing it the wrong way. Obviously this means someone bought the material, and felt cheated by the cost and they pirated it. Honestly though do all of you out there who point a finger of shame at these people who are involved live in steel reinforced houses? Back when Napster was the hot ticket in music are you all telling me none of you used it at all??? None of you in your lives have acquired something that was technically illegal but very easy to acquire that way? I am not condoning their actions, but I am not pointing fingers or saying they should be sued, because every single person commenting on this is guilty of a form of this, so it could happen to all of you like it is happening to them.

I honestly think they did something brilliant but horrible at the same time. If not for Napster, the music industry would still be raping people with outrageously overpricing material and running a monopoly on a resource.

Now, WOTC has been put on notice that people arent fond of being raped by them anymore. WOTC now has to come to the realization that they cannot get away with this and they wont be able to sue away the problem with gustapo tactics. They have to come up with a new age. Like the music industry did, that pleases all sides. If they don't then this sueing fiasco will mean nothing to anybody, because I guarantee if they dont change their prices and come up with a new system for distributing their online material then this will most definitely happen again, and it will keep happening until WOTC actually listens to its people, the ones who put the money in their pockets. Until the people are pleased, (which is the entire concept of retail and business) WOTC is dropping the ball, and the blame should be pointed no where but squarely at them!

cigamnogard
05-15-2009, 07:00 PM
Many people vote with their wallet - I am one of them I also refuse to play or buy the 4th Ed as I thought is was a blatant $ grab. My 3.5 books are still in good shape.

tesral
05-16-2009, 12:00 AM
Funny how the print refuses to fall off.

Dark
05-17-2009, 01:33 PM
Many people vote with their wallet - I am one of them I also refuse to play or buy the 4th Ed as I thought is was a blatant $ grab. My 3.5 books are still in good shape.

My friend let me borrow his because of his distaste after buying them I tried to get my players to try them but to no avail. All mf my 3.0 and 3.5 are from ebay for next to nothing I may grab 4e one day on ebay but no way will I pay what WotC wants for them.

daddystabz
05-27-2009, 03:41 PM
WotC sucks arse. Pathfinder > 4e. Go pirates go!

Panthro82
05-27-2009, 11:38 PM
WOTC even found a way to murder Magic The Gathering!!! I used to love playing. I got a sour taste in my mouth though when they would create cards and then ban them from tournament play. (they sponsor the tournaments, and they created/own the magazine that bans cards from tourney play) OK....So...You created the cards for what purpose?!?!?!

BrotherDog
05-28-2009, 03:56 AM
WOTC even found a way to murder Magic The Gathering!!! I used to love playing. I got a sour taste in my mouth though when they would create cards and then ban them from tournament play. (they sponsor the tournaments, and they created/own the magazine that bans cards from tourney play) OK....So...You created the cards for what purpose?!?!?!

Just to piss you off in specific. It's true I read the memmo.

Deadone
05-28-2009, 09:21 AM
All I can say is keep up the good work WOTC. You will be the next company heading to DC looking for a handout.

Panthro82
05-28-2009, 10:07 PM
LOL the last 2 comments are very true

TheRageOfGaia
05-29-2009, 03:56 AM
This is related, but not entirely on topic. I'm an (for the moment [crosses fingers[) amateur/aspiring writer, and I sometimes read magazine articles and websites about the craft or about the industry.

I came across an old article yesterday from 2005 or 2006 dicussing the "harm" of used book sales. Because the publishers and authors never see any money from the secondhand sale of their books. They were talking about organizing an effort to close down the used book sections of Amazon.com, eBay, and other places, like Barnes & Noble.

What's next? I can't sell my bike at a garage sale because Huffy doesn't make A SECOND profit off of me? It's not the consumers fault that reading, and role-playing, are small niche markets. I didn't invent the internet, I don't make english students read Atlas Shrugged and make them hate literature forever. Once I pay for something I should be able to share it with whoever I want.

Maybe my feelings will change if and when I get published, but I doubt it. Hell, when my novel hits bookstores I will put it on the internet.

Whatever happened to art for art's sake?

BrotherDog
05-29-2009, 04:15 AM
This is related, but not entirely on topic. I'm an (for the moment [crosses fingers[) amateur/aspiring writer, and I sometimes read magazine articles and websites about the craft or about the industry.

I came across an old article yesterday from 2005 or 2006 dicussing the "harm" of used book sales. Because the publishers and authors never see any money from the secondhand sale of their books. They were talking about organizing an effort to close down the used book sections of Amazon.com, eBay, and other places, like Barnes & Noble.

What's next? I can't sell my bike at a garage sale because Huffy doesn't make A SECOND profit off of me? It's not the consumers fault that reading, and role-playing, are small niche markets. I didn't invent the internet, I don't make english students read Atlas Shrugged and make them hate literature forever. Once I pay for something I should be able to share it with whoever I want.

Maybe my feelings will change if and when I get published, but I doubt it. Hell, when my novel hits bookstores I will put it on the internet.

Whatever happened to art for art's sake?

It got outlawed

Panthro82
05-29-2009, 04:58 AM
I'm an aspiring writer as well and I feel pretty close to the same as you rage. We seem to agree on alot of things!

BrotherDog-What did you get outlawed from?

tesral
05-29-2009, 12:13 PM
This is related, but not entirely on topic. I'm an (for the moment [crosses fingers[) amateur/aspiring writer, and I sometimes read magazine articles and websites about the craft or about the industry.

I came across an old article yesterday from 2005 or 2006 dicussing the "harm" of used book sales. Because the publishers and authors never see any money from the secondhand sale of their books. They were talking about organizing an effort to close down the used book sections of Amazon.com, eBay, and other places, like Barnes & Noble.


It's called the right of first sale, and it states that what is yours is yours and you have the right to sell it. Once I sell you something, I have relinquished any right to that object. You can read it, burn it, sell it to someone else.

A right I consider necessary and proper.

Dark
05-29-2009, 04:12 PM
One of the reasons I love Ebay after 2e I never bought a new book from WoTC again and never will. All I now own is second or third owned and that suits me fine and :violin: if they don't like it last time I checked the U.S is still a free country so :p.

TheRageOfGaia
05-29-2009, 04:15 PM
Oh, cool. I didn't know there was such a thing. The Right of First Sale sounds much more authoritative than "I can do what I want with my crap." Thanks Tesral! :p

I thought maybe I was just spoiled. Here in Portland, we have a store called Powells City of Books. Actually, there are three locations, but the main building is three-stories of floor-to-ceiling shelves that takes up an entire city block. It's like... Nerdvana. Also, I think it's the largest independent bookstore in the world, with over a million new & used books. So if you're ever in this neck of the woods, definitely check it out. There's a rare book room, and even a coffee shop inside.

wulfdesign
05-29-2009, 04:19 PM
another reason to have an open system where the 'Core Rules' are free.
and almost any adventure (plot) can be converted and plugged in.

we could see this coming and it was one of the reasons we ended up building our own game system.

if you can't hack it, you really don't own it.

Panthro82
05-29-2009, 05:00 PM
ohhh that sounds awesome! I have a bookstore about 12 minutes from my house that is like a midget version of what you just mentioned Rage. It is an old house converted into a used bookstore. Floor to ceiling walls of books. It is an entire house of rows that is like a maze. Oh man first time I was in there I nearly got lost! I loved every minute of that 3 hours!!!

tesral
05-29-2009, 05:03 PM
I liked those places a lot better before I screwed my back up.

Rook
06-07-2009, 06:15 AM
ohhh that sounds awesome! I have a bookstore about 12 minutes from my house that is like a midget version of what you just mentioned Rage. It is an old house converted into a used bookstore. Floor to ceiling walls of books. It is an entire house of rows that is like a maze. Oh man first time I was in there I nearly got lost! I loved every minute of that 3 hours!!!
Love places like that but, alas, all have come and gone in my part of the world. Use to have a place called the book den that sold a selection of books 5/$1 that lasted only a few months (no surprise, I guess), Already Read Books lasted a few years and was pretty cool, but the saddest of all losses was Walter Amos Bookseller that stocked over 70,000 books in a labyrinthine store where you never knew what gem you' come across next. WA was around for decades but went out of business about 2 years ago, leaving a complete derth in the area. I love Amazon, but it really killed the used book store...

Dark
06-07-2009, 01:24 PM
Now that is something I miss going to the old book stores and finding lost gaming treasures. Our last one closed a little while ago but the owners own greed ran here out of busisness. I must have spent somewhere close to $10,000 over the years there buying used and new gaming books from her.