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cigamnogard
04-02-2009, 03:00 PM
Last night my eleven bard/paladin snagged a pearl of power (3rd level) in order to give it to the wizard. She had to succeed on a slieght of hand's roll versus the ranger's perception. I rolled a 16 +3 DEX = 19 (untrained)the Ranger with a spot of 15 + 1 (Fumble!) was foiled. The players were happy but the paladin is on a slippery slope...

In the bard/paladin's defense:
The ranger made a 'deal' with the evil diety who's tomb the party was in. Not the party leader aka the bard/paladin.
The bard/paladin did not lie at any time.
The ranger had no idea in charcter what had happened.
The bard/paladin's diety does not like the diety who's tomb the party was in.
The bard/paladin was acting in the best interest of the party in 'liberating' the item. The bard/paladin has profession sailor. It's a long and distinguished naval term.

Malruhn
04-02-2009, 10:03 PM
The way I run things, it would TOTALLY depend upon the paladin oath you took to become a paladin of your deity. It would depend upon your deity as well. Some may be a little more... free... with how they play with the "Follow the rules" things than others.

The Elven deities are MUCH more free with stuff if the actions were in the best interest of either Elven-hood-ness, the Elven kingdom, or ANYTHING that blows its collective nose at orcs and the orcan-hood-ness-ity.

BUT - this is the way _I_ look at it. I am sure Tesral is pretty close to this as well (we're pretty compatible with our disdain of the alignment system), but this will depend totally upon YOUR DM or your argument that you present to your DM.

Good luck!

wizarddog
04-02-2009, 10:53 PM
It would most likely follow a Bard/Paladin's take on serving their deity; through misdirection.

However, you do realize that Sleight of Hand is a trained only skill; So unless you have Bardic Knack, Jack of all trades, or spell granting you the training, technically you could not do the skill roll.

But that's nit-picking and I already ate. ;)

wizarddog

cigamnogard
04-03-2009, 04:24 PM
Bard's have access to sleight of hand - and the DM ruled that was the roll to make.
As for the oath - she didn't really make an oath...any suggestions that way?

cigamnogard
04-09-2009, 05:03 PM
The character almost lied last night - but quickly caught herself.

DMMike
04-10-2009, 11:39 AM
Sounds like a code of honor breach to me. Stealing and use of deceit are not very paladin-like. You should probably draw a thin red line - paladins aren't known for utilizing gray areas in morality.

Sascha
04-10-2009, 07:43 PM
Bard and paladin, all in one. Rather intrigued as to how that character came about, actually. That story alone might help answer these things ;)

As to the ethical questions here, best answer is "it depends," largely on how strict the group interprets a paladin's code to be: ie. how much leeway technical infractions are given, should they be done in the Right. If done in the Wrong, well ... that's more rhetorical question, than seeking guidance :P

Malruhn
04-10-2009, 10:26 PM
You were a bard and then took up Paladinhood without even considering what kind of code of honor your Paladin might be involved?? Or do I have this backward and you were a Paladin that took up bard? You still didn't even consider what ramifications may have on your existing class??

Not being disparaging is hard, but if we had more info, perhaps we can help.

What is your deity? If it isn't core, what book is it from? If it isn't published, what info do you have on him/her/it? We can start there and hopefully get you back within role-playing standards.

cigamnogard
04-13-2009, 04:30 PM
You were a bard and then took up Paladinhood without even considering what kind of code of honor your Paladin might be involved?? Or do I have this backward and you were a Paladin that took up bard? You still didn't even consider what ramifications may have on your existing class??

Not being disparaging is hard, but if we had more info, perhaps we can help.

What is your deity? If it isn't core, what book is it from? If it isn't published, what info do you have on him/her/it? We can start there and hopefully get you back within role-playing standards.

Bard that took up Paladin. No, no plan on honour code.... Honestly, the last time I had played a bard I multiclassed as a fighter (albiet 3.0e); so, I did not want to do the same thing again.
God = Corellon Larethian

Sascha
04-13-2009, 06:29 PM
Bard that took up Paladin. No, no plan on honour code.... Honestly, the last time I had played a bard I multiclassed as a fighter (albiet 3.0e); so, I did not want to do the same thing again.
God = Corellon Larethian
Main book paladin, or the Chaotic Good variant? 'Cause the stock paladin is, erm, the Paladin of Honor; sorta in the job description, heh (with an "always Lawful Good" clause). The Paladin of Freedom (from Unearthed Arcana), on the other hand has slightly more behavioral flexibility in that regard ("always Chaotic Good," plus Bluff is one of their class skills; halfway towards making an argument for untruth already, there :P).

Also, in what context was your character considering a lie? This is more important, as it can establish an argument for violating one duty (the duty to not lie) if it's in the service of a higher duty. (Of course, this part means little, as a Paladin of Freedom, rather than of Honor ;))

Not that I'm trying to dissuade the option of moral dilemma; it's one of the more fun aspects of the class, exploring an ethics set that may not be one's own. It's part of the reason I'm currently playing one ^_^

cigamnogard
04-17-2009, 03:45 PM
Bard and paladin, all in one. Rather intrigued as to how that character came about, actually.

We lost one of our main fighters. The character - er - player decided to take up the slack.

nijineko
04-18-2009, 03:23 AM
in that case, i suggest that you take this opportunity to make up a really good story that supposedly happened in downtime or something else equally interesting. there is this one story i read about a goblin who got dragged along with the adventuring party into a dungeon as they had gotten the idea that he knew his way around. he fell down some deep pit and discovered the last remaining relic of a forgotten god. the god was woken up by the goblin messing with the relic and offered to heal the goblin if he would take him as his deity. insta-cleric. and when the party found out he could heal.... anyway. i suggest you come up with an interesting story as to why this is either okay, or that you are still learning the ropes and this was your first mess-up or something.

Malruhn
04-19-2009, 12:02 PM
If I am wrong, I apologize, but what I am smelling is nothing more than a min-maxing player who is interested in nothing but power and abilities, mixing with a DM that is interested in RULES and storyline.

Or, perhaps, a min-maxing player who HAS been interested in nothing but power and abilities, and is starting to realize that there is an entire ROLE playing game involved in D&D. I remember when this happened to me

Are one or both of these opinions incorrect? Help me out. I don't have a problem apologizing if I'm wrong!!

tesral
04-20-2009, 09:24 AM
Draw the lines, seriously. You cannot expect a code to be followed without a code.

As written the Paladin is an accident waiting to happen. You are constantly dicing with the edges as you don't know where the edges are.

Define the rules, be the strict or loose, but define them. I have orders of Paladin in which that action would be perfectly fine, and orders in which it would not. I don't see a single all encompassing answer.

Check my Religions (http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com/fantasy/gs_fant.htm#Culture). There are ideas within.

Sascha
04-20-2009, 11:50 AM
Yeah, it would help if the class writeup gave a solid code without using the broadest of broad, loaded words, if even for example, but alas ...

In any case, the Paladin class is largely about conviction; the will to do Good is practically tangible when considering these knights. My suggestion for a paladin is a strong sense of Duty - to whom and what, well, that's highly variable; a Duty to Protect the Innocent is noble, a Duty to Justice and Fairness likewise.

From a character standpoint, going from Bard - who, by the book, can't be Lawful (yet rogues can; go figure ... but I digress) - to Paladin - who can't be anything *but* Lawful (unless you use the variant classes) - is a major arc starter. *Something* called the character to service, be it a deity's Batsignal or injustice witnessed; this kind of change is literally the stuff of legend.

cigamnogard
04-21-2009, 06:34 PM
in that case, i suggest that you take this opportunity to make up a really good story
Will try that but the campaign is pretty faced paced with little downtime.
--- Merged from Double Post ---

If I am wrong, I apologize, but what I am smelling is nothing more than a min-maxing player who is interested in nothing but power and abilities, mixing with a DM that is interested in RULES and storyline.

Or, perhaps, a min-maxing player who HAS been interested in nothing but power and abilities, and is starting to realize that there is an entire ROLE playing game involved in D&D. I remember when this happened to me

Are one or both of these opinions incorrect? Help me out. I don't have a problem apologizing if I'm wrong!!

If that is the case then I should done my best to get as much of the loot as possible...but the character has constantly given it up. As it is the bard/paladin is just keeping pace with his power hungry player...
PS The item he stole was for the wizard a +3 pearl of power the charcter is unable to even use.
--- Merged from Double Post ---

From a character standpoint, going from Bard - who, by the book, can't be Lawful (yet rogues can; go figure ... but I digress) - to Paladin - who can't be anything *but* Lawful (unless you use the variant classes) - is a major arc starter. *Something* called the character to service, be it a deity's Batsignal or injustice witnessed; this kind of change is literally the stuff of legend.
Devoted performer feat allows for the crossclassing.

Lucian-Sunaka
04-21-2009, 07:06 PM
Well, for starters the feat doesn't allow the crossclassing, it facilitates it in terms of bardic abilities but multi-classing is entirely allowed (you just couldn't take levels in Pali again without it or without an atonement or something.)

Also, just a note, if you get enough Paladin levels eventually you will be able to use a 3rd level pearl of power (and some of the 3rd level paladin spells are pretty kick-ass for a meleeist to be able to bust out)

cigamnogard
04-21-2009, 07:12 PM
Well, for starters the feat doesn't allow the crossclassing, it facilitates it in terms of bardic abilities but multi-classing is entirely allowed (you just couldn't take levels in Pali again without it or without an atonement or something.)

Also, just a note, if you get enough Paladin levels eventually you will be able to use a 3rd level pearl of power (and some of the 3rd level paladin spells are pretty kick-ass for a meleeist to be able to bust out)

Multiclassing bard/paladin and crossclassing appropriate skills is also permited --> you might want to reread page 107 of The Complete Adventurer.
--- Merged from Double Post ---
As for the 3rd level spells - yes, eventually but at way higher levels. The bard currently doesn't even have that high level of spells.

Lucian-Sunaka
04-22-2009, 11:29 AM
As though it would matter for the bard side, pearls of power specifically say prepared spell lol.

(And yeah, I knew it helpped with the skills and coming back to take more levels in each class, but I was trying to point out that simply going from one to the other was already an option in the rules, assuming any necessary alignment changes.)

nijineko
04-22-2009, 06:36 PM
there is a sorcerer equiv to pearls of power, called memento magica (amethyst carved into the shape of dragon scales). they restore a spell slot. cost slightly more than the equiv pearls of power. but are soooo handy. found in races of the dragon, and i think in the magic item compendium. if so, the later has the most current cost and rules.

Lucian-Sunaka
04-23-2009, 11:37 AM
The one sad thing about that, is how much more they cost. For the price of two Momento Magika you could have three pearls of power, and WHY? Wizards are the ones who are supposed to be able to cast anything but have less castings per day and more restricted choices, yet pearls of power give them more castings, and make it alot rarer for the "Oh snap I wish I hadn't used that spell earlier today" situation, and the same item for sorcerers cost more.

*sigh* I really wish WotC hadn't decided to treat the sorc as their redheaded stepchild among the primary casters. They got the favored soul about right.

Anyways, enough of my moaning lol, good luck with your palibard.

cigamnogard
04-23-2009, 03:15 PM
She is only 148 xp form leveling up!
Level 4 Bard
Level 3 Paladin

Malruhn
04-25-2009, 11:39 PM
Third level - nearly fourth... and is there a Paladin's Code yet?

cigamnogard
04-29-2009, 04:19 PM
Not yet..off to game tonight!

cigamnogard
05-06-2009, 06:27 PM
Level 4 - Level 4!
Paladin's Code:
I have been looking at the 2nd Ed. Knight Errant
Another game-night tonight!

cigamnogard
05-08-2009, 07:49 PM
Game went good. A new character was introduced - another paladin!
Now this new character is a dyed in the wool crusader type paladin. Nothing like my bard/paladin.
For example:
We encounter an undead creature. The crusader paladin detects evil and wants to kill the creature. My bard/paladin wishes to speak with the vile thing prior to making any hasty rash acts.
--- Merged from Double Post ---

Level 4 - Level 4!
Paladin's Code:
I have been looking at the 2nd Ed. Knight Errant
Another game-night tonight!

As well as the Envoy - both of these are described in the Paladin's handbook from 2nd Ed.

nijineko
05-13-2009, 01:12 AM
The one sad thing about that, is how much more they cost. For the price of two Momento Magika you could have three pearls of power, and WHY? Wizards are the ones who are supposed to be able to cast anything but have less castings per day and more restricted choices, yet pearls of power give them more castings, and make it alot rarer for the "Oh snap I wish I hadn't used that spell earlier today" situation, and the same item for sorcerers cost more.

*sigh* I really wish WotC hadn't decided to treat the sorc as their redheaded stepchild among the primary casters. They got the favored soul about right.

Anyways, enough of my moaning lol, good luck with your palibard.

yeah, i see what you mean. the granting of a slot of a given level is almost the same as granting a recast of a previously cast spell. i suppose that a sorcerer has a slight advantage in the number of spells to choose from among the spells known/memorized, but only of the lower level spells.

about the pali-bard... i would find it highly amusing if the code boiled down to correcting those bastions of lawful-stupid via promotion of mercy and second chances. ^^ interesting party dynamics for as long as it lasted....

cigamnogard
05-13-2009, 05:34 PM
yeah, i see what you mean. the granting of a slot of a given level is almost the same as granting a recast of a previously cast spell. i suppose that a sorcerer has a slight advantage in the number of spells to choose from among the spells known/memorized, but only of the lower level spells.

about the pali-bard... i would find it highly amusing if the code boiled down to correcting those bastions of lawful-stupid via promotion of mercy and second chances. ^^ interesting party dynamics for as long as it lasted....
The game continues tonight!
Party now consists of:
Leader: Bard/Paladin
Meatshield: Paladin
Meatshield: SWashbuckler/Swordsage
Meatshield: Barbarian
Healer: Cleric/Crusader
Scout: Ranger