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LAST CRUSADER
03-09-2009, 05:55 PM
Since this is a pen and paper site we're all fans of REAL RPGs but i'm sure most of us have also played COH. I'd like people to use this thread to say what they like about pen and paper that makes it better than COH.
I'll start, I like the fact that REAL RPGs are more customizable. i can do a lot in my game that coh will never be able to do.

Skunkape
03-10-2009, 07:13 AM
The biggest difference to me between something like CoH or any MMO is that the players can actually make a difference in the world. Problem with MMOs is you are catering to a large audience, instead of 6 people so the needs of the many as it were outweight the needs of the few or the 1.;)

Plus the interaction between GM and Players and just the Players themselves is much different in a PnP game than an MMO.

Farcaster
03-10-2009, 12:33 PM
That's true for the most part, Skunk, but there are games out there that are rather episodic and don't mess much with the campaign world in which they are set. Personally, I think the biggest difference is that you can be involved in a much more engaging story. Based on my experiences with it, City of Heroes is pretty much a rinse-and-repeat, mission-grind, kill-bad-guys game with only a loose thread of story to keep it altogether. But, don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the game for what it was. It, like every other MMORPG, just doesn't fill the spot that pen and paper games do for me.

Skunkape
03-10-2009, 02:20 PM
I want to make sure you know I'm not knocking MMOs, because I like them and have played them in the past, it's just the wash, rinse and repeat cycle that eventually ruins the experience for me! Oh and that I don't have much time for them currently!:D

Also, there's something about sitting around a table with a group of people and having face to face rping!

LAST CRUSADER
03-10-2009, 05:48 PM
I didn't take you wrong. this isn't about bashing online games, my intention was to talk about why we really like pen and paper games. Personally I like both myself, and when i get through typing here I'm gonna play some COH.
Each type of game should be apreciated for what it is, to me and i suspect many others, computer games are just games, but REAL RPGs are actually an art form

Webhead
03-10-2009, 05:52 PM
MMO's (or any other computer/video game) are limited by the scope of what the programmers have designed to allow/disallow. If the programmers didn't think of it, it can't be done.

A pen-and-paper RPG is limited only by the imaginations of the players and GM. Want your character to be 18 feet tall with 3-foot long finger nails and fart a shower of grenades every time he eats pasta? Okay...you're a bit strange...but it can be done. Want to visit the obscure town across the mountains rumored to have a well that grants eternal life? Why not? Want to blackmail the local police chief with pictures of his "outings" to the motel across town? Go for it.

There always comes a point in a pre-programmed game when you come up with an idea which you feel should be totally plausible but which the game does not allow you to even attempt. Table top role playing does not have such boundaries and you are free to try to do anything you want (that doesn't necessarily mean you'll succeed ;)).

Skunkape
03-11-2009, 07:46 AM
I didn't take you wrong. this isn't about bashing online games, my intention was to talk about why we really like pen and paper games. Personally I like both myself, and when i get through typing here I'm gonna play some COH.
Each type of game should be apreciated for what it is, to me and i suspect many others, computer games are just games, but REAL RPGs are actually an art form

My statement was to make sure Farcaster knew I wasn't knocking MMOs not you Crusader.:D

I think one of the greatest things about PnP games is that with the right group, all of you work towards telling a story, with an MMO, sure you can tell a story, but you're limited to what you can do by what the developers have programmed in. Not quite the same thing as a PnP game, but still can be fun!

nijineko
03-17-2009, 01:13 AM
coh won't run on my machine, so i can't give it very high marks. the reason i mark coh down instead of my machine, is because the coh site lists sys reqs that are well within my machines capability. yet it doesn't run. *shrug*

despite that, i retain my enthusiasm for the potential of what super hero games could become.

LAST CRUSADER
03-17-2009, 05:49 AM
did you call for tech support?

waxlion78
03-17-2009, 03:29 PM
Actually, with the expansion soon to be released for CoH you'll have the ability to create your own battle scenarios, baddies for your heroes to fight (or vice versa) and invite friends to play your home brewed quests. If you can get around dealing with the other people playing you should be able to create a pretty good medium for a PnP LIKE MMO. (Where you have a GM who creates the maps, baddies, etc. puts a story behind it and lets his friends/victems go though it.)

LAST CRUSADER
03-17-2009, 04:12 PM
It sounds good but i'm betting it will be more trouble than it's worth.

waxlion78
03-17-2009, 04:15 PM
I know I likely won't go through the trouble of running it, but a friend of mine who lives on the other side of the country is very excited about the prospect and is going to be giving it a shot. I'll let you guys know how it works out when the time comes (I think the exspansion won't but available for several months yet)

nijineko
03-18-2009, 04:41 AM
i would be interested in hearing how that goes.

i doubt that i would receive much in the way of tech support on an invite account. i could give it a try though.

Azatoth
03-21-2009, 12:41 PM
I like RPGs over MMOs because for the most part, RPGs never devolve into mindless xp grind and the game world actually has a pulse of it's own.

<blinks> An expansion for CoX finally? Really? I gotta see this! I bet they are getting nervous with Champions Online around the proverbial corner.

LAST CRUSADER
03-21-2009, 06:11 PM
HERE HERE !!!
The mindless xp grinding sucks the life out of a game real quick. also i find the game much more enjoyable because it's more fun to here the G.M."s voice than to read enless lines of a story. i like beig able to interupt with questions and coments of my own.

Skunkape
03-23-2009, 07:31 AM
I like RPGs over MMOs because for the most part, RPGs never devolve into mindless xp grind and the game world actually has a pulse of it's own.

<blinks> An expansion for CoX finally? Really? I gotta see this! I bet they are getting nervous with Champions Online around the proverbial corner.

DC Universe Online might be giving them a little concern as well.

LAST CRUSADER
03-27-2009, 08:52 PM
i tried the new adventure creator on coh in the test server. it looks good. not quite so complicated as i was afraid it might be. still a bit glitchy and of course no substitute for live RPGs

Marvel Master
11-14-2009, 11:05 AM
COH vet here and I tend to disagree with a few of the points that have been laid out.

The game is what you make it. If you are into mission grinding, you can do that but since I'm an RPer, I use missions as well as binds and macros to add to the flavor to my experience which makes my experience much more enjoyable.

Also, with the Architect mission creator, the possibilities are endless in making different adventures that can cater to a specific group of heroes. With the advent of inventions origin enhancements and the new customizable powers, sky's the limit on this game.

That being said, as good as the game is, it just doesn't cut it when it comes to the face to face social interaction. The spontaneity that can happen in a campaign is just not possible in an MMO. If the characters in a P&P game want to hitch a flight to the Ozarks to visit a scientist, they can do that. In MMOs, you're stuck in that world.

Of course, you can do far more with your character in a P&P than you can in a MMO. More customizable and there's no cap limit to levels. You play as long as you want because of the character, not just because of what they can do.

If I had to choose one, it would be P&P. Hands down. But MMOs are a nice departure when wanted.

LAST CRUSADER
02-05-2010, 09:49 AM
It's been a while but i'm ready to add more to this discussion based on my own recent xp.
Champions online sucks the life out of me because the camera angles keep changing randomly altering the direction of your movement and making long distance travel a ROYAL PAIN. the enhancements are rediculously complex and the overwhelming majority of them are useless because you can't use very many. I was also disapointed when right after the tutorial i was kicked out of the city and exiled to a desert or a frozen wasteland.

The custom adventure creator in city of heroes is pretty good but i was really disapointed to learn that it was a virtual world within a virtual world. i think it would have been much more effective as a step outside the game tool so the player can make content that is real to his character. now we have a bunch of superheroes who don't have time to fight crime or save the city because they're too buisy playing games at achitect entertainment.

one more thing i like about pen and paper games is that in an online game your complaints might go unnoticed or ignored for a really long time (like the ticket i posted on champions about the camera angle a week ago) but GMs are much quicker to fix things that aren't right.
also i'm sick of game content that just doesn't make sense, like super agressive street thugs who attack superheroes on site even when the hero is just trying to go down the street to his next mission, or levels being used to toughen up oponents that shouldn't be tough: after fighting off an alien invasion and battleing a desert full of mutants or a mystic deity, why am i so likely to get my butt kicked by a few muggers ?!!!!

also check out my seperate threads about how RPGs are different from comics and how superhero games are different from other games.

Dr.Dead
02-05-2010, 01:34 PM
I play COH but I can't play it anymore because I don't how pay for it anymore.

Regicide
02-06-2010, 10:09 AM
As the late great Dave Arneson once put it, the difference between a computer RPG and a PnP campaign is the difference between vegging out in front of your TV and going out to see a live show.

MMOs are in my opinion like particularly bad, formulaic and repetetive sitcoms on that scale.

Dytrrnikl
02-08-2010, 04:02 AM
PnP games beat COH and other MMO's because...

As a GM, I can react to the choices of my player as they happen - meaning the players choices have an immediate and direct impact on the direction of the story.

Also, at least as far as the PnP games I run, player's are not locked into a tightly defined and specific 'mission'. My games are very fluid, something, in my COH experience (no longer play due to rinse and repeatness), that is completely lacking for MMOs.

Admittedly, I have found MMOs to be an interesting diversion from time to time, similar to playing a video game...it's nice for a time, but ultimately just won't hold my attention for long.

BayGuardian
02-15-2010, 08:05 PM
PnP games beat COH and other MMO's because...

As a GM, I can react to the choices of my player as they happen - meaning the players choices have an immediate and direct impact on the direction of the story.

Also, at least as far as the PnP games I run, player's are not locked into a tightly defined and specific 'mission'. My games are very fluid, something, in my COH experience (no longer play due to rinse and repeatness), that is completely lacking for MMOs.

Admittedly, I have found MMOs to be an interesting diversion from time to time, similar to playing a video game...it's nice for a time, but ultimately just won't hold my attention for long.

You should go back and give CoH a try again. They added in a mission editor system so it's possible to create your own storyline now. With a group of friends and some effort, you can now have a campaign of your own that makes it more unique.

Dytrrnikl
02-16-2010, 04:22 AM
You should go back and give CoH a try again. They added in a mission editor system so it's possible to create your own storyline now. With a group of friends and some effort, you can now have a campaign of your own that makes it more unique.

I've heard about this from some friends of mine that still play CoH. While intriguing and definately full of potential, can you...as the Storyline author, make adjustments on the fly, as the scenario is being played, based upon the actions and decisions of the players? Or do you have to wait to make such adjustments for those times when the scenario is not being played?

My experience running games, has been that no matter how much one plans or attempts to anticipate the actions and choices of the group, the players will inevitably pick the one choice or action that was not forseen. Table top games allow the GM to react to the 'unforseen' seemlessly in game, while playing.

I'll have to ask my friends that still play what their assessment of the mission editor is, compared to running a game on the fly.

BayGuardian
02-17-2010, 10:38 PM
It's my understanding you can't adjust on the fly. If you've been playing through CoH for a long time, you kind of have a good idea for what is level-range appropriate, though.

Lass
03-22-2010, 05:01 PM
I gave CoH about two years of me life and loved it!!!!! I was in a great RP based SG and we created stories within the framework of the game... but it required a lot of brain stretching!

That being said, the interpersonal interaction of a face to face group cant be beat. I also love the idea of creating stories that develop characters and relationships over a long period tat you simply cant within a MMO.

Online live superhero games can also be quite rewarding. I ran a game of MnM over maptools that was a great deal of fun.