PDA

View Full Version : Big weapon finesse



canadiansatan
01-09-2009, 08:38 AM
This comes from my favorite 3.5 character.

My character has weapon finesse with a spiked chain (piercing weapon). I also have a feat to let my character use the spiked chain one handed (at a small penalty).

Now I am using a piercing weapon one handed. A requirement for dualist is that I have weapon finesse with a one handed piercing weapon.

Can I be a dualist while one hand wielding my spiked chain?

DMMike
01-09-2009, 08:54 AM
1) What's a dualist?
2) Technically, you can be a dualist, since the chain is wielded as a one-handed weapon.
3) Realistically, you can't be a dualist, because a dualist probably uses his off-hand to increase agility, while your feat probably requires you to use your off-hand to keep from falling over while using a spiked chain one-handed.

Meeki
01-09-2009, 09:46 AM
What does the feet that lets you use the spiked chain in 1 hand say?

Does it say you may treat the spike chain as a 1 handed piercing weapon? I would say the wording on the feat itself is important.

If it doesn't say you can treat the spike chain as a single/1 handed weapon then you cannot take duelist since the spiked chain is itself still a 2 handed weapon. I am betting the feat allows you to treat it as if it was 1 handed.

Really I would ask your DM if he treats that requirement as the weapon itself being 1 handed or how the character treats the weapon. Your character treats it as a 1 handed weapon, most likely, but the chain is still a 2 handed weapon.

Suzaku
01-09-2009, 11:00 AM
You can take over sized weapons, and then wear bracers of strong arm (sp?) from MIC . Congrats you're now dual wielding two spike chains meant for large creatures and they're both treated as light weapons for two weapon fighting.

Bearfoot_Adam
01-09-2009, 01:59 PM
IF the feat you are using is Monkey grip then I would say no since that allows you to wield a two handed weapon in one hand. Where as in order to use the precise strike duelist ability it calls for a light or one handed piercing weapon. This is not keeping you from being a duelist as far as I can tell from the description in the SRD this just means that you can not use the precise strike ability that comes at 5th and 10th level.

canadiansatan
01-10-2009, 04:58 PM
IF the feat you are using is Monkey grip then I would say no since that allows you to wield a two handed weapon in one hand. Where as in order to use the precise strike duelist ability it calls for a light or one handed piercing weapon. This is not keeping you from being a duelist as far as I can tell from the description in the SRD this just means that you can not use the precise strike ability that comes at 5th and 10th level.

But as far as my character's point of view, it is a one handed piercing weapon.

Bearfoot_Adam
01-11-2009, 01:23 AM
And that is fine. But if I was gming my interpretation would be that a spiked chain is still a large weapon you are just using it one handed. I feel that the monkey grip feat supports this interpretation since you are fighting at a penalty due to the weapon being unwieldy in one hand. The idea of the Precise Strike ability is that you can take an easily manipulated light piece of metal and put it where you want. I just can't see a human sized person being able to do that with a 6 foot length of weighted chain with one hand. Now if you were a half giant or a large creature then it would be fine and dandy. As I said this is just my interpretation.

ignimbrite
01-13-2009, 02:48 PM
agreed bearfoot_adam. The flavour of the requirement is that the weapon is light and easily manoeuvred. A character that creates a kludge to meet the requirements is not really fulfilling the flavour of the PrC. The fact that you still have a penalty indicates that you aren't wielding the weapon as effectively as you could - certainly not as effectively as a rapier or shortsword.
Now maybe as a DM I might let you take Weapon focus and Greater weapon focus to negate the -2 penalty and thus qualify ... the fact that your characters training has been that focused with a particular weapon might offset the fact that normally it is completely unwieldy to use the s.chain in one hand.
OR, and this is a complete DM call, pay to have the character enlarged, but with the persistent spell metamagic feat and then use a normal s.chain ... if you ever get dispelled though you lose all benefits of the dualist PrC until you are large again .....

GC13
01-13-2009, 06:13 PM
Flavor-wise, it has already been covered that the idea of someone skillfully maneuvering a giant piece of metal they hold in one hand (and are taking an accuracy penalty for using in one hand) precisely is silly.

Mechanically, it has already been covered that Monkey Grip does not change the weapon from Two-Handed to One-Handed, and that Duelist specifically calls for a Light or One-Handed weapon (both of these being specific mechanical terms). If all Duelist wanted was that the weapon be wielded in one hand, it would say so rather than using a specific term.

So no, you can't get your Precise Strike bonus in this case.

canadiansatan
01-16-2009, 10:57 AM
And that is fine. But if I was gming my interpretation would be that a spiked chain is still a large weapon you are just using it one handed. I feel that the monkey grip feat supports this interpretation since you are fighting at a penalty due to the weapon being unwieldy in one hand. The idea of the Precise Strike ability is that you can take an easily manipulated light piece of metal and put it where you want. I just can't see a human sized person being able to do that with a 6 foot length of weighted chain with one hand. Now if you were a half giant or a large creature then it would be fine and dandy. As I said this is just my interpretation.

We do run into a logic issue when (even with the penalty) the character's attack bonus is 10 points higher than a dualist using a dagger who supposedly has a more accurate attack.
--- Merged from Double Post ---
Also, since monkey grip makes it so "unwieldly" would that mean the character can no longer take advantage of weapon finesse?

Meeki
01-16-2009, 11:11 AM
Weapon Finesse specifically includes a spiked chain in the list of weapons covered by the feat.

GC13
01-16-2009, 11:34 AM
Monkey Grip doesn't make the Spiked Chain anything. The Duelist's Precise Strike calls for a "light or one-handed piercing weapon". A quick scan of the weapons section shows Spiked Chain in the "Two-Handed Melee Weapons" section, and now that I re-read Monkey Grip, it wouldn't let you use a 2H weapon in one hand. What feat are you using to use a Spiked Chain in one hand?

You could use a small spiked chain one-handed to satisfy the requirements. You'd suffer a -2 penalty for an inappropriately-sized weapon, but it being designed for a smaller wielder does change it to a one-handed weapon for you. And you'd still have reach, most importantly.

Bearfoot_Adam
01-16-2009, 02:38 PM
I was thinking 3.0 monkey grip which apparently is different the 3.5 monkey grip. So, what feat are you using Canadian?

canadiansatan
01-17-2009, 01:58 PM
3.0 monkey grip lets you use the weapon in one hand but at a -2. That's what he used.

I'm mostly annoyed that there seems to be no good logical reason why someone with a +25 attack bonus using weapon finesse can't hit as accurately as someone with a +10 attack bonus using weapon finesse.

GC13
01-17-2009, 07:09 PM
Because hit bonus and AC are both abstractions that involve your ability to make contact with and do damage to an enemy, and the ability is meant to compensate for the lesser damage of one-handed weapons.

Bearfoot_Adam
01-18-2009, 10:29 AM
Wait, you're trying to apply logic to d20 combat rules? That is your first problem. As stated earlier my other problem is that no matter how good you are with a spiked chain it is still 10 pounds of swinging steal. You can be a great fighter but still not be able to effectively put it where you want to, even two handed, due to it's weight and momentum. Compare that to a rapier or dagger or other light weapon that allows you to stop and change your direction of attack with comparative ease. Remember, this does not prevent you from being a spike chain duelist since you can use weapon finesse with the chain. You just can not use the "precise strike" ability. If you want the same feel why not just switch him to a whip, or whip dagger or maybe even one of the martial arts weapons, if there is one that qualifies. Then I feel it would be totally fine to use precise strike.

Meeki
01-18-2009, 10:59 AM
Umm... umm what if umm... the spiked chain was made of star steel or something else super light :-)

Logic holds some weight in D&D, I mean come on the Dire Flail is a perfectly useful weapon.

DMMike
01-18-2009, 11:48 AM
:whip:
I'm surprised there's a dire flail, but not dire morningstar. So how do you suppose that dire flail gets used, twirling both ends like two wheels toward an opponent, or maybe like a spinning baton, in a single circle of doom?

Maybe I should search Youtube for "LARP dire Flail" to figure this out...

Webhead
01-19-2009, 12:07 PM
Well, this is D&D...we kind of left the realm of "realism" about the time it introduced characters who can stop time or detect "evil" as though it were body odor.

But yeah, I crack up every time I try to imagine a character wielding a dire flail...:lol:

At that point as a player, I would just go all the way and take proficiency in sword-chucks...

nijineko
01-20-2009, 08:22 PM
won't work for a duelist. the prerequisite is for a specific category of weapon type, not whether you can wield the weapon easily or not. perhaps not too logical, but there it is. maybe you could talk your dm into allowing you to make a feat that allows you to wield the chain as a light weapon.

an example on the other hand, were you to take levels of dervish, they get a class feature that allows scimitars to be used as light weapons in all respects... which would allow the character to qualify for duelist with a scimitar.

have you looked into the lasher prestige?

canadiansatan
01-29-2009, 08:24 AM
Most reasonable reply, make up a feat after monkey grip that lets you weild a large weapon as a light weapon. Done and done.

Now it is a light weapon for my character, used with weapon finesse, and a piercing weapon.

nijineko
01-29-2009, 07:13 PM
hmmmmm......... ^^

canadiansatan
01-29-2009, 09:19 PM
Indeed

Bearfoot_Adam
01-30-2009, 09:22 AM
Glad you found something that works for you. Way too twinkish for my views but to each their own. That is the joy of the hobby, if you don't like the rules change them. Enjoy your one hand wielding spiked chain duelist of death.