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Duniagdra DaaMyour
01-06-2009, 08:52 PM
Witness the war (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2242881/mac_vs_pc/)

boulet
01-06-2009, 08:59 PM
One of the oldest flame bait ! Well I guess we could use a little flame war to keep us warm during the snow storm :)

Webhead
01-06-2009, 10:02 PM
What's the best way to accelerate a Mac?

9.81 m/sē.

:flame:

James McKinney
01-06-2009, 10:18 PM
Witness the war (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2242881/mac_vs_pc/)

Linux! Bwahahahaha!

GoddessGood
01-07-2009, 09:57 AM
Guh, excessive credits.

I can appreciate that macs are supposed to be more stable, but if I can't afford them and have to install windows on them to play my computer games, then what's the point of having one?

jade von delioch
01-07-2009, 10:27 AM
that has changed in recent years. there are more and more game for macs. But yes, if all your concerned with playing a video game- then use a pc. the idea of placing the widows OS on a mac is beyond stupid. First why would you sit there and pick between all the different types of vista when you could just buy the newest mac OS- which does not come in 6 different broken flavors?

hueloovoo
01-07-2009, 11:36 AM
I'm told Macs are reliable, well-designed, and tend to be about as upgraded as they can get when you buy them.

Where's the fun in that? I like to tinker with my machines, even when they're not broken! PCs give me so many chances to do so...

Webhead
01-07-2009, 11:44 AM
I am a gamer who likes to upgrade my rig...aka...PC user.

I have nothing against Macs (used to have one many years ago) but I don't do enough of what they are designed for for them to be useful to me. I use my 'puter for internet browsing, word processing and gaming. Buying a Mac wouldn't make a lot of sense for me.

And, despite the Mac commercials which would have you believe otherwise, PCs (yes, even ones with Vista) work just fine if you know what you're doing. I still prefer XP, but my wife's laptop came with Vista and we have not had any problems with it thus far.

tesral
01-07-2009, 12:05 PM
Linux! Bwahahahaha!

Second. five years windows free and I have a computer that is mine and works.

In five years I have not run a virus or malware scan.
In five years and four upgrades I have not paid a cent for computer software and have it all legally.
Bought a new laptop last April Lenovo Thinkpad T-61 shipped with Linux. Paid 100 dollars less because it wasn't windows and got Novell support with it.

Webhead
01-07-2009, 12:20 PM
Second. five years windows free and I have a computer that is mine and works.

In five years I have not run a virus or malware scan.
In five years and four upgrades I have not paid a cent for computer software and have it all legally.
Bought a new laptop last April Lenovo Thinkpad T-61 shipped with Linux. Paid 100 dollars less because it wasn't windows and got Novell support with it.

I never had serious problems with Windows the way some people seem to have. Then again, I'm picky about what I allow on my PC, so there is something to be said for being cautious. I also have not purchased non-gaming software that didn't come pre-installed on a computer in...well...actually probably ever. All legit as well.

I'm frugal and a cautious consumer. My current PC is nearing the 4-year mark and it still works like a charm and manages to perform well enough (thanks to some cheap and very modest upgrades) to keep up with most of the games that I want to play. No, it won't run things like Crysis or other resource-hogs at anything more than about 10 frames, but most of the games I play these days run at near-max settings with no hiccups.

hueloovoo
01-07-2009, 12:55 PM
If my laptop didn't come with Windows Vista on it (ick) I woulda installed Linux. BUT. Linux is a bit of a quandary for me. I like the idea of a free, non-pirated OS, but I don't know what to DO with it. I don't want to spend years reading exhaustive MAN pages, but every time I come against an issue and ask for help, the snotty community tells me "RTFM." Then, once I get it installed and working (or just use Ubuntu and ignore the Pokemon comments) I can't for the life of me figure out what's worth doing with it, aside from browsing the internet and playing WoW (if I can ever get it to work in Linux).

I think Linux would be a lot more loved, if the other users were a little less arrogant. What's the point of open source if the only people using it are unwilling to deal with people trying to learn it?

boulet
01-07-2009, 12:57 PM
The thing that annoys me with Apple PR campaigns against PCs is the fallacy that PC=Windows. Sure statistically there may be more Windows OS deployed than the rest of the possible OS out there. Still it's dishonest and I hate brands that use disinformation in their campaigns.

Webhead
01-07-2009, 01:46 PM
The thing that annoys me with Apple PR campaigns against PCs is the fallacy that PC=Windows. Sure statistically there may be more Windows OS deployed than the rest of the possible OS out there. Still it's dishonest and I hate brands that use disinformation in their campaigns.

Sure. I can agree. The commercials really ought to reveal themselves as "Windows Vista vs. OS X" rather than "PC vs. Mac".

fmitchell
01-07-2009, 01:47 PM
The thing that annoys me with Apple PR campaigns against PCs is the fallacy that PC=Windows. Sure statistically there may be more Windows OS deployed than the rest of the possible OS out there. Still it's dishonest and I hate brands that use disinformation in their campaigns.

We're talking 90% or more of PCs run Windows (last I checked), so it's not exactly a lie.

I finally switched to Mac when I upgraded my dinky laptop to Ubuntu Linux and couldn't get my WiFi card to work ... apparently it had a "proprietary" driver. That wasn't the only reason -- having a faster CPU, more memory, and a larger screen doesn't hurt either -- but it was the final straw. (My old laptop, BTW, would go into "auto-coma" even when running Windows 2k; I'd have to reboot to get it back. Contrast to the Mac, where shutting the lid puts it to sleep cleanly, and opening it brings it back almost instantly.)

GoddessGood
01-07-2009, 01:50 PM
There's a reason that most people, when they have to sneeze, ask you for a kleenex. Not a tissue, a kleenex. Yes, kleenex is a brand of tissue, but nobody ever asks you for a Puffs do they? Kleenex has become synonymous with tissue the way Windows has become synonymous with PC, the reference is just assumed. You don't see Microsoft rushing to correct the mistake, and I doubt you'll see any PC makers doing it either. *shrug* Brand recognition sells product.

jade von delioch
01-07-2009, 01:58 PM
Its about majority not the minority. If the majority of pc users use the windows OS then thats what you should concentrate on.

Macs are upgrade able, you just cannot do it yourself.
I have a PC with vista -regrettably-and the only problems i have run a across have been issues with which vista you have and what software you want to install. Vista basic for instance will not work with or let you install any adobe program other than Acrobat reader. If you have Maya 8.5 (i can't say for the other ones), then vista premium throws a fit every so often. this doesn't happen on other OS. I'm not that much of nerd so i don't sit around playing video games and could careless to play around with my computer if i needed to. I will be adding more ram here soon though- but if this was a mac i just take it to an apple store and have them do it for me.

I gree with the idea of band names, by the by. Its one of those things that they teach us at school.
oh and one other thing, Macs don't get viruses. I'm not saying it not possible for someone to create one- it just doesn't happen. Apple is really good about watching out for that type of thing and sending a mass update to fix/block that type of problem. By the by, most viruses are made by mac users.

Webhead
01-07-2009, 02:00 PM
There's a reason that most people, when they have to sneeze, ask you for a kleenex. Not a tissue, a kleenex. Yes, kleenex is a brand of tissue, but nobody ever asks you for a Puffs do they? Kleenex has become synonymous with tissue the way Windows has become synonymous with PC, the reference is just assumed. You don't see Microsoft rushing to correct the mistake, and I doubt you'll see any PC makers doing it either. *shrug* Brand recognition sells product.

Indeed. Xerox is the same way. People don't say, "I need to photocopy something". More often they say, "I need to Xerox this" or "I'm going to make a Xerox copy".

A comedian (whose name escapes me at the moment) once made a similar remark:

"I think whoever developed the Birth Control Pill did an excellent job of branding and marketing. All you have to say is, "The Pill" and suddenly everyone knows exactly which "pill" you're talking about. It's not the cancer-curing pill or the heart-disease pill or the pill for people with diabetes. Nope...it's the "we can sleep around without making babies" pill."
--- Merged from Double Post ---

...but if this was a mac i just take it to an apple store and have them do it for me...

Which works if you can spare the money. I like do-it-yourself-ers when I can, not just because I learn a great deal from it and get a sense of satisfaction of a job well done, but also because it tends to save me a lot in labor costs.

For the very same reason, I am loathe to hire repair services like plumbers and the like, simply because something as simple as a 10 minute house call to tell you that you have a problem (duh) can cost upwards of $100. I hate to throw around money so frivilously.

Then again, my dad has been a mechanic, electrician and carpenter for most of his life, so I think I've absorbed the do-it-yourself mindset.

fmitchell
01-07-2009, 02:59 PM
I like do-it-yourself-ers when I can, not just because I learn a great deal from it and get a sense of satisfaction of a job well done, but also because it tends to save me a lot in labor costs.

Whereas I find that, at this point, I'm long on money and short on time. Therefore, having an expensive laptop that "just works" matters more than a cheap laptop I have to muck with. Plus, I seem to be all thumbs with hardware; my own attempts to upgrade or fix a desktop machine have led to further breakages (although it could just be a crappy machine).

Webhead
01-07-2009, 03:12 PM
Whereas I find that, at this point, I'm long on money and short on time. Therefore, having an expensive laptop that "just works" matters more than a cheap laptop I have to muck with. Plus, I seem to be all thumbs with hardware; my own attempts to upgrade or fix a desktop machine have led to further breakages (although it could just be a crappy machine).

Precisely. It's about which you can better afford...time or money. I'm poor right now, so my time-to-money availability index is heavily slanted in the "time" direction.

jade von delioch
01-07-2009, 03:39 PM
Ya, personally i like the idea of professionals doing that typew of stuff (as far as computers) because a lot can go wrong and ruin a lot more than a box full of wires. If the apple techs do something wrong i get a new computer and they put all the stuff on the hard drive into the new computer. Yah! if i screw up.. :(

hueloovoo
01-07-2009, 03:53 PM
But learning by doing is the fun part for me. Recently, my laptop (covered by a 3 year warranty) was knocked off the table by my son. The only damage it took was that the power jack was broken inside it. The warranty does not cover that sort of problem, and no one in town would work on it, I think because they're all a bunch of wusses. I tried resoldering the jack in place, and it would have worked except the plastic housing was broken inside it.

I had to send away for a $10 part, take my laptop *completely* apart and put the new part in place. It was a really challenging experience, and I had a lot of fun (and frustration) with it, but now the laptop is even more important to me, because I feel like I put more effort into it than anyone but the original designer.

So maybe I'm weird, but if I can upgrade and fix and do all the work myself, it means more to me. A Mac just wouldn't give me that experience, I think. Sure, Mac woulda fixed the jack (and probably charged me a arm and a leg) but it's just not my style.

Edit: Also, I can generally afford a $10 part, but I can almost never afford a $200 repair.

tesral
01-07-2009, 05:12 PM
I had to send away for a $10 part, take my laptop *completely* apart and put the new part in place. It was a really challenging experience, and I had a lot of fun (and frustration) with it, but now the laptop is even more important to me, because I feel like I put more effort into it than anyone but the original designer.
.

Once you open one, the mystery is gone and you can work on laptops. I've fixed a couple. Get the manual. the manual is your friend.

I build my own desktop machines. The one I have now (Got it in June) ran me under $500 and took all of three hours to both build and install openSUSE 11. I spent some time tweaking the thing to get it just the way I wanted. Things like that program I use once in a while that I forgot to install.

No wireless (No problem with it on the Laptop running the same OS. But it's a Linux shipped laptop.) I like good old Cat5 for the simplicity and security. I've got the stuff run all over my 80 year old house. So I have a 2.4 gig Core Duo, 4 gig of ram, 1 terabyte of hard drive in two drives. The usual DVD/CD burner. An ancient MS natural keyboard and my logitech tracball. If I had a good reason to I'd hook the webcam back up.

Oh something else you get with a laptop that ships with Linux. Something that comes with NO version of Windows. A real honest to goodness OS source disk. I ditched SLED* 10 for openSUSE 11 and the computer didn't even complain, and my warranty wasn't voided.

MY computer MINE, not some far off company telling me what to do or not to do! MINE you hear me!


* SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop. More locked down than an Nunnery. I want my toys.

hueloovoo
01-07-2009, 06:25 PM
Now I'm jealous, because frankly Linux (except for some prepackaged versions that do everything for you) reads like a strange language written in pictographs with random characters missing. Wanna explain stuff to me sometime? Every now and then I start to feel froggy and install it, but it never really sticks to me.

tesral
01-07-2009, 06:56 PM
Now I'm jealous, because frankly Linux (except for some prepackaged versions that do everything for you) reads like a strange language written in pictographs with random characters missing. Wanna explain stuff to me sometime? Every now and then I start to feel froggy and install it, but it never really sticks to me.

It's not a difficult as it looks to be. the "pre-packaged" Distros are the way to go unless you have a thing for pain. I favor openSUSE myself. I can do 99.9% of everything I need to do in the GUI. I'm not a command line guru. I ran Amigas to start my computer experience. I loathed windows for the clunky and difficult method by which it did everything. It was an easy transition to Linux.

A couple of things to remember:

-- Most Linux people are not good teachers.
-- MAN pages are not the do-all and end-all because for the most part programmers cannot write and cannot teach. The exceptions are rare and protected under the Endangered Species Act.
-- Windows only looks easy because it comes pre-loaded. If you actually have to install Windows from scratch on hardware you don't have driver disks for it makes the average Linux Distro look easy. (I know, I have done this)
-- The only thing to fear is fear itself. The computer will not turn into a 10d12 monster and eat you if you fail at an install. Don't play around with your production machine. I recommend that the average person get another hard drive, install same and start with a dual boot system. Eventually you stop booting into windows at all.
-- The three most important words in computing: backup, backup, backup. I cannot repeat that enough.
-- Ideally you should not have your data and your OS on the same partition. Ideally, they should not be o the same DRIVE! This goes double for any computer infected with Windows. Windows will fail, it will blow chunks and it will take the whole mess down, and Stan of the Geek Squad, who couldn't code his way out of a paper bag, he will format your drive and you will loose everything, and he will charge you an arm and a leg for the privilege. (I have separate partitions for Root and Home. I have done cold install upgrades myself, wipe the Root drive and do it over, didn't lose so much as an e-mail and all my profiles and preferences were right where I left them on the Home drive. Linus just has a better file organization system.)

cplmac
01-07-2009, 07:40 PM
..

I gree with the idea of band names, by the by. Its one of those things that they teach us at school.
oh and one other thing, Macs don't get viruses. I'm not saying it not possible for someone to create one- it just doesn't happen. Apple is really good about watching out for that type of thing and sending a mass update to fix/block that type of problem. By the by, most viruses are made by mac users.


It is definately possible for Macs to get viruses. That is why you can purchase any of the major virus softwares in a Mac version. You just don't hear much about them because most people use PCs. I will admit that I have never heard anything about Linux users getting a virus. If you have a good piece of virus software, and are carefull of what you allow onto your computer, you shouldn't have any problems. So as to not give some free advertising, if anyone wants, PM me and I will tell you what software I run on my PC with Windows XP that has stopped quite a few virus type programs from screwing up my computer.

Also, it doesn't matter what type of computer you are using to write the virus on. The people that write those things target a specific type of file for it to attack.

Edward
01-07-2009, 08:46 PM
I use Linux, specifically Ubuntu 8.10.


In five years and four upgrades I have not paid a cent for computer software and have it all legally.

I never buy software, either. Often there's a feature I would particularly like to see added, so I sponsor a feature request. The ability to do that is one of the big advantages of open-source software.


I like the idea of a free, non-pirated OS, but I don't know what to DO with it. I don't want to spend years reading exhaustive MAN pages, but every time I come against an issue and ask for help, the snotty community tells me "RTFM." Then, once I get it installed and working (or just use Ubuntu and ignore the Pokemon comments) I can't for the life of me figure out what's worth doing with it, aside from browsing the internet and playing WoW (if I can ever get it to work in Linux).

I think Linux would be a lot more loved, if the other users were a little less arrogant. What's the point of open source if the only people using it are unwilling to deal with people trying to learn it?

It only takes a few bad apples to ruin the bunch. Some communities do have an attitude problem, but most I've tried have been very helpful. There are always a few people who will mouth off; you just have to ignore them. I've used Mandriva, Fedora, Ubuntu, and a couple of small distros. Of those, I found the Ubuntu community to be most helpful, probably because it has the largest number of non-technical users. Fedora is too bleeding-edge for my taste. I haven't tried OpenSuse.

As to what's worth doing with it, I'm not much of a tinkerer, so I usually have a specific task in mind. If you don't, you could ask other users what they're doing with the software in question. You'll probably get some interesting ideas that way. You would want to post in the forum or list for the specific application rather than the distro.

As far as Mac vs. Windows vs. Linux comparisons, you have to keep in mind that Apple is a hardware company. If you really want an apples-to-apples comparison, you should compare the platforms, not just the OS.

One of the reasons Apple is so successful is because they control the hardware on which their OS is installed. You can never really get the same effect with Windows, because the hardware company can't customize the OS. You can get the same effect with Linux, if the hardware vendor customizes the OS to their hardware as Apple does with theirs. Many don't, of course. That's why some Linux netbooks have return rates four times as high as those of Windows netbooks, while others have lower return rates.

Apple isn't really beating Microsoft, or not just Microsoft; they're beating Dell and HP.

Mindbomb
01-07-2009, 09:25 PM
I wish I could get someone to install Linux on my PS3, but that's too expensive a machine for me to experiment with.

MortonStromgal
01-07-2009, 10:41 PM
I'm actually enjoying Vista a lot. I can do more from the command line than ever before. Vista has some bugs still (like showing correct quota usage) but really you can turn on or off most of the "problems" people complain about. Granted they have a lot to learn about command line commands

linux (IIRC, its been awhile)
ifconfig eth0 192.168.10.12 netmask 255.255.255.0

vista
netsh interface ipv4 set address "local area connection" static 192.168.10.12 255.255.255.0

vista = a lot more typing...

Aidan
01-07-2009, 11:54 PM
Bah, Microsoft and Apple are both evil, it's just that Apple is even *more* about vendor lock-in than Microsoft is. Personally, I've been using Linux since my Windows 95 said I needed to reload the OS for the second time in six months, so I did, with Slackware. That was 1998 and since then I've used Red Hat, SuSE and am now using Kubuntu.

tesral
01-08-2009, 12:42 AM
One of the reasons Apple is so successful is because they control the hardware on which their OS is installed. You can never really get the same effect with Windows, because the hardware company can't customize the OS. You can get the same effect with Linux.

If you're truly crazy you can do that yourself with a roll your own Linux compiled from the source code for just the hardware you are running it on.

I'm not that crazy. I have found that SuSE and openSUSE have met every need I have asked them to meet.

The main difference you will find with any Linux distro is the software the distro is administered with. YOu can also get a good deal of variation in desktop managers. KDE, Gnome, Blackbox and so forth.

Edward
01-08-2009, 01:11 AM
If you're truly crazy you can do that yourself with a roll your own Linux compiled from the source code for just the hardware you are running it on.

Well, yes, I suppose you could. I was talking about hardware vendors, though -- the second- and third-tier companies trying to compete with Dell and HP, as well as small local computer dealers.


I'm not that crazy. I have found that SuSE and openSUSE have met every need I have asked them to meet.

The main difference you will find with any Linux distro is the software the distro is administered with. YOu can also get a good deal of variation in desktop managers. KDE, Gnome, Blackbox and so forth.I would add the community, since each distro's community has a somewhat different focus (more technical, less technical, more or less business-oriented, etc.).

I agree than an individual doesn't need to customize their distro, as long as they're using well-supported hardware. Customization is essential for a vendor, though, to make sure everything runs smoothly and as a well-integrated whole on the platform they're selling. That's especially true with the more specialized platforms such as netbooks, tablets, and embedded systems.

Vendors who don't have much experience with Linux and just slap on a distro without thorough testing often end up with return rates much higher than with comparable Windows systems. Those who do customize Linux to their platform, however, often have very satisfied customers and return rates considerably lower than with Windows. Apple is the master at ensuring a smooth user experience this way; their execution is among the best. It's not likely that any Windows vendor will ever come up with anything comparable.

Moritz
01-08-2009, 08:39 AM
Mac's, like Linux, don't get viruses because no one gives a crap about them enough to write a virus for either. :)

ronpyatt
01-08-2009, 08:49 AM
I support Mac and Windows, and I own and use Linux/Vista/XP and soon a Mac to do iPhone programming. I also enjoyed the BeOS back in the day.

Macs get viruses. Apple put out an announcement recommending Mac users get protection. They have printer problems, hardware issues, data loss, and are so complex that Apple offers weekly classes for Mac users to help them understand how to use it.

PC's come in Windows, Linux, and a host of other flavors, including a Mac flavor called a Hackintosh.

MortonStromgal
01-08-2009, 10:16 AM
Mac's, like Linux, don't get viruses because no one gives a crap about them enough to write a virus for either. :)

Not entirely true, there are quite a few Mac ones and at leased two Linux ones. The main thing that keeps *inx safe is not using root while browsing the web. Also Linux is technically just the kernel, things like apache have exploits that need patching all the time. Windows includes a lot of extra stuff like I.E. So for an apples to apples comparison we can't count when Windows has an I.E. exploit even though you dont have a choice about installing it.
http://www.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities is one good site to check out.

Aidan
01-08-2009, 12:53 PM
Not entirely true, there are quite a few Mac ones and at leased two Linux ones. The main thing that keeps *inx safe is not using root while browsing the web. Also Linux is technically just the kernel, things like apache have exploits that need patching all the time. Windows includes a lot of extra stuff like I.E. So for an apples to apples comparison we can't count when Windows has an I.E. exploit even though you dont have a choice about installing it.
http://www.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities is one good site to check out.

To keep everything 'apples to apples', you certainly shouldn't compare Apache to Internet Explorer. Internet Explorer is comperable to Firefox. They are both web browsers. Apache is a web server, comparable to IIS which has its own large list of vulnerabilities.

Farcaster
01-08-2009, 01:07 PM
If this ever comes to fruition, I will switch to Linux (or Mac, or whatever) in a heartbeat:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/12/29/microsoft.metered.computing/index.html

:yell:

tesral
01-08-2009, 01:22 PM
Mac's, like Linux, don't get viruses because no one gives a crap about them enough to write a virus for either. :)

Sorry for the wall of text, but read on....

Here you are wrong. Viruses to attack Unix/Linux servers are a constant threat. Unix/Linux has better tools to defeat them.

The difference between Windows rolling over and playing dead and the Unix (OSX is a Mac front end on BSD Unix) and Linux not rolling over is the permissions system. Unix, and by decent Linux are multi-user systems by default. Unix/Linux uses a "Limited is Default" system of permissions. For example, right now typing here I cannot install a program on my computer. The user "tesral" does not have permission to install programs. To do that I have to log in as "root".

What that means in practice is a malicious program cannot go behind my back and get itself installed without my knowledge. If one tries, I get a requester for a root password, if I have not taken an action myself to call up such a requester that is a red flag to not do it.

Windows began life as a single user system. There was only one level of permission, do anything you wanted. As a result it is easy for malware to get into the system behind the users back. It isn't that "windows is more popular therefore it get's the virus effort." Windows is actually easier to hack.

While their has been some effort to correct this basic deficiency in the windows system, starting with the NT line, developers have not been consistent in supporting the separate administrator/user format of use. In practice this is defeating the protection that would offered by forcing the user to run as administrator to access their program. Add the fact that windows users are not in the habit of thinking "administrator bad" when running their computer. Administrator gives them maximum access, so they toss all security to the wind and run in administrator mode.

If I ran my Linux system like that I would be asking for an attack as well. Computer security is usually defeated by an ID10T error. or "loose connection between keyboard and chair". The user is at least 60% of your computer security, and I could be understating that.

Other things that protect my system. The Firewall Router. Yes, I run an internal network. So for me the router is a necessity. However I recommend that anyone have one even if there is only one computer in the house. That router is a hardware firewall that is the first line of defense for your computer. It effectively hides your computer's presence from the Internet at large. All the trollers see is the NAT. They don't know what is behind it, and they go looking for easier prey, Granny's computer hung out on the net with nothing between it and them run in administrator mode because no one has taught her different.

I had a friend bring me a computer (windows) he said "I think it has a virus." I decided to take the machine to my Linux Users Group as an exercise in using Knoppix to clean a windows machine. We didn't. When we ran a virus check the thing was seething petri dish of malware, spyware and viruses. Recommended action was to disinfect the hard drive in sulfuric acid, get a new one and start over. Fixing it was more work that was worth the effort. That I fear is the average windows machine.


If this ever comes to fruition, I will switch to Linux (or Mac, or whatever) in a heartbeat:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/12/29/microsoft.metered.computing/index.html

:yell:

Save time, switch now. Microsloth has been trying to implement that since Win/98. What they want is a direct line into everyone's wallet. One reason I build my own computers. I don't pay the Microsoft tax on a OS license I will not use.

Freejack
01-08-2009, 01:38 PM
I like my Mac Powerbook. I don't play games on it (well, nethack from time to time). I have installed mysql, apache, and php on it so I can take my various wiki's with me to games (I run Shadowrun from the Mac).

Problems: Lately Safari has been bailing with errors and even causing the system to lock up. I've switched to Firefox even though it's a bit slower and it uses more resources than Safari (noted by the laptop heating up more than when I'm running Safari).

I just built a new gaming rig.

Antec 900; Corsair 750W PSU, Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3R MoBo; Intel dual core E8500 CPU; Zalman CPU Fan; 8 Gigs of OCZ 800 Mhz DDR2 RAM; Radeon 4870PE5512 Video; Radeon DM-R9250PCI-D3 Video; 3 Seagate 750 GB HD; X-Fi SB073A Soundcard; X-540 Speakers; DRU-V200S 20X DvD burner; XP Pro SP3

Pretty decent for gaming purposes although I have to disable two of the three monitors to play Doom or Quake :)

Problems: The 4870 isn't recognized by the system on boot for some reason. Once Windows starts though, it's available. It causes problems with patching, fixed by booting again. I'm also getting some driver issue with the ATI drivers that causes a blue screen on startup a couple of times a week. Since there are two video cards by the same manufacturer, I can't use the driver for the second card (the extra tools interfere with the main card). When I first installed it, it caused no end of trouble and I simply reformatted it rather than try to get the drivers straightened out.

I do have several other systems though including a few PCs.

OpenBSD 3.7/4.0: This is my server pair; backup and main box. I do my work on the 3.7 box and push the files up to the "production" box in Florida. The box backs up the the Florida server only files such as home directories, configurations, and the web sites (such as blogs or forums) that are updated there.

Problems: Mainly that packages are unavailable after the second update. So OpenBSD is at 4.2 or 4.3 now which means I can't get updated packages. Since it's a colo site, I'm limited by their management. It'd be nice if I could have (lights out management) LOM access to the box but I don't see that happening.

Mandrake Linux 9.2: Home firewall. Blocks all outside sourced ports and most of the outbound ports. So if a mail server is installed on one of our machines, it won't be able to spam the world (we both use Yahoo mail).

Problems: One of the mirrored drives is complaining but it's using such an old version of the volume manager that I can't find any help on resolving the problem. Fortunately there isn't anything but the firewall on it so I'm not concerned.

Sun Ultra 60 (2), Enterprise 250: General screwing around really. I got them for a pretty good price and I'm a Solaris admin mainly so it's good to have something to screw around on that's not a work box :)

Problems: Really only that the E250 gets really hot when it's on. Dual power supplies, four SCSI drives, nice big monitor. System wise though it works fine.

http://www.schelin.org/jpgshow.php?HPIM0198.jpg

http://www.schelin.org/jpgshow.php?HPIM0210.jpg

http://www.schelin.org/jpgshow.php?Dscn0795.jpg

The right tool for the job, I always say :)

Carl

mrken
01-08-2009, 01:47 PM
If this ever comes to fruition, I will switch to Linux (or Mac, or whatever) in a heartbeat:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/12/29/microsoft.metered.computing/index.html

:yell:


You will most likely have to stand in line to do that. I too would dump MS if that was the route they took, even if that meant two years w/o a computer while I learned the Mac or Linux OS.

As for building our own computer, we do that too with the help of this Russian guy. Used to have a Chinese guy build them but my wife wanted to cut out the middle man. The laptops are Gateway, Dell and HP.

Aidan
01-08-2009, 02:41 PM
If this ever comes to fruition, I will switch to Linux (or Mac, or whatever) in a heartbeat:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/12/29/microsoft.metered.computing/index.html

:yell:

If this happens, I say we bomb microsoft and the US Patent Office.

The thing that boggles me the most is the 'pay for performance'. Apparently they want to throttle graphics, processor speed, and various other things unless you pay more for them. You have the hardware to go faster, it just won't let you. It's like having a car that you have to pay more money to make go over 25 miles an hour.

tesral
01-08-2009, 03:28 PM
If this happens, I say we bomb microsoft and the US Patent Office.

The thing that boggles me the most is the 'pay for performance'. Apparently they want to throttle graphics, processor speed, and various other things unless you pay more for them. You have the hardware to go faster, it just won't let you. It's like having a car that you have to pay more money to make go over 25 miles an hour.

The only chance of this not happening is Mac and Linux. If Microsoft had the control they wanted, you would have to pay for thinking about using a computer.

Valdar
01-08-2009, 04:42 PM
One of the reasons Apple is so successful is because they control the hardware on which their OS is installed. You can never really get the same effect with Windows, because the hardware company can't customize the OS.

From my time in the video game industry, my experience was that this is not the case. OpenGL was essentially unusable for newer hardware features unless you had the clout of someone like Carmack, who could request bugfixes from driver manufacturers when he discovered them. Direct3D was much more reliable- this was the reason that the company I worked for never did any games for the Mac or Linux.

MortonStromgal
01-08-2009, 04:55 PM
To keep everything 'apples to apples', you certainly shouldn't compare Apache to Internet Explorer. Internet Explorer is comperable to Firefox. They are both web browsers. Apache is a web server, comparable to IIS which has its own large list of vulnerabilities.

I wasn't comparing Apache to IE. I was saying Apache gets a lot of exploits that affect Linux users. I also was saying you cant compare Linux to Windows because Windows includes extra software you cant get rid of (without killing the OS anyway) so you cant do apples to apples. It was two separate thoughts.

And thumbs up to Testral for a good explanation as to why *nix tends to be more secure. You can certainly make *nix unsecure.


While their has been some effort to correct this basic deficiency in the windows system, starting with the NT line, developers have not been consistent in supporting the separate administrator/user format of use. In practice this is defeating the protection that would offered by forcing the user to run as administrator to access their program. Add the fact that windows users are not in the habit of thinking "administrator bad" when running their computer. Administrator gives them maximum access, so they toss all security to the wind and run in administrator mode.

This statement is really great but I would like to add XP was the first desktop Windows to have all the nice *nix security and remote features, unfortunately they created this horrible mess of RPC security holes in the process and thanks to 3rd party vendors the registry has looked like swiss cheese for years, so the permissions they added only worked well for programs they wrote. For none MS apps you either had to give the users admin access or not. Some programs just dont work without the ability to write into the systems folder. Vista has gone leaps and bounds further in terms of usablity of these features but although i can now mount /cd-rom rather than having drive letters theres still alot of 3rd party software which doesn't play by the new rules. Nothing says fun like having a game install fail because the cd-rom is /cd-rom and not D:


If this ever comes to fruition, I will switch to Linux (or Mac, or whatever) in a heartbeat:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/12/29/microsoft.metered.computing/index.html

:yell:

Already does for IT professionals. Though for us it costs about the same as Vista Ultimate and Office Professional from the MS Store (or about $300 a year)... Only we get most MS products (no Visual Studio and a couple others). These are "training versions" meaning you cant use them for a production environment but home use or testing is fine.


All that to say Microsoft OSes are way better than they were and while not as solid as a good *nix its more about the user and the config than the OS 80% of the time. Like Freejack said right tool for the right job. The other Vista praise I have is memory management, boot up and my system takes 2 gigs of memory (suck) load a couple sessions of virtual servers 08' and guess what... my system takes up 2 gigs of memory (awesome!). For the record XP was 512 meg after boot (aprox) and another 512 per server session.

cplmac
01-08-2009, 06:16 PM
Thanks for Linux lesson, tesral. I knew that there was probably a virus or two floating around that could affect it, but I had never heard of any for Linux. Your explanation above tells me why.

Edward
01-08-2009, 08:54 PM
From my time in the video game industry, my experience was that this is not the case. OpenGL was essentially unusable for newer hardware features unless you had the clout of someone like Carmack, who could request bugfixes from driver manufacturers when he discovered them. Direct3D was much more reliable- this was the reason that the company I worked for never did any games for the Mac or Linux.

There are certainly problems with OpenGL. From everything I've heard, DirectX is much easier to work with. It's possible that OpenCL will change this. General purpose GPU computing is likely to be a real game-changer.

You're talking about software development, though. I was talking about selling computers (and related electronics -- PDA's, point-of-sale terminals, etc.). A hardware vendor isn't going to be developing new applications, but they do need to customize the OS to their hardware platform if they want to ensure a good user experience. Vendors can't tinker with the Windows code; they have to take what Microsoft gives them.

That's why I see Apple as competing primarily with Dell rather than Microsoft. Dell will never be able to achieve the same user experience with Windows-based PC's that Apple has achieved with the Mac, because they can't customize the OS to their hardware as Apple does. When you buy a Mac, you're not buying an OS; you're buying a computer that has been thoroughly integrated at every level. Dell can't match that -- unless they put a lot more effort into integrating Linux with their hardware than they have so far.

tesral
01-08-2009, 10:01 PM
Thanks for Linux lesson, tesral. I knew that there was probably a virus or two floating around that could affect it, but I had never heard of any for Linux. Your explanation above tells me why.

Hacking Apache is a full time occupation for some people. Apache is the Linux web server and every botnet runner wants a piece of it. There are Linux anti-virus programs, but they all run at the server level. There is much much more Linux running at the server level than the desktop.

It's a sweet desktop too by the way. I just installed it and dove it, I didn't miss a beat. Firefox and Thunderbird work the same as they do in Windows, so does Open Office and Gimp. Other programs took a little time to learn, but no different than installing new software on your winbox.

Grimwell
01-09-2009, 01:18 AM
I'm not supposed to do this... but I'm going to tell you the truth about all computers. It might cost me my license in the computer technicians union, but I don't think it will cost me my life.

Before I tell the secret, I'm going to share a few qualifications. That way you don't think I'm just some guy who plays video games and can install a video card or some RAM.

For approximately six years, I worked as a computer technician. I have worked on PC, I have worked on Mac, I have worked on Linux, I have worked on Unix... Hell I have tinkered on computers in a VAX network and brought a Novell server to life with help over the phone for an auction house in Chicago (one of those places where rich people auction things that start with six figure opening bids)... Then, for three more years I worked in management at Best Buy and was there for the conversion to Geek Squad.

I say that because I want it clear that I have worked on and supported computers in a collegiate environment, fortune 500 business environment, a hundreds of computers per day building rental company, and a "OMG you can't believe how the average person can break a computer" retail environment.

No, I didn't work on computers in the days of punch cards... but I've seen quite a bit of time with my hands on a computer.

Heck, if you give me a stack of ten laptops that don't work and a few handy tools, I will start taking them apart and return you 7 or 8 laptops that do work, and one or two "parts machines" that still have things you might be able to reuse. That's a fun afternoon.

Now then.... where were we? Oh, right. The Secret

The truth of all of these computer wars is that there is no "better" computer. Each computer, each operating system, each just about everything have values, merits, and flaws. They are each right for different people.

Apple... man do they have style down. Their products look cool and futuristic now. Their OS, especially in modern days, it's about as straightforward as one can get. The day I got to see the command prompt in the old apple OS scheme... was pretty exciting because you NEVER see the command prompt in the old apple software if you are normal user.

The modern Apple software package, with it's Unix baseline... it's good. Unquestionably so. Packaged in the Apple hardware, the combination is graceful and elegant, like an European sports car.

If you are working on graphics or audio, Apple is the way to go. If you just want to browse the web and send emails or IM's, but you want your computer to look awesome (and feel awesome, they have great design) Apple is the way to go. Just don't forget to bring the cash because Apple protects their visual imagery to the point of zealotry. They understand that Apple is just as much look and feel as it is computer.

PC... just call it Windows. Yes, other operating systems run on PC's but let's face it, if you have a Linux distro on the drive, you are already in a select group and don't care if people don't think you have a PC.

So, Windows... it's a great operating system. Even Vista. Getting to great took a number of years for Windows, 3.0, 3.11, and 95 pretty much sucked if you knew anything about Apples. Thing is, Windows had all the good software! What I mean by that is that all the games were on Windows, the good office applications were on Windows. Especially post-NT when Microsoft let Apple have the colleges and went for the Fortune 500.

Window's is a sedan. Everyone can get one and you do need one for the family to get about. It's usually reliable, and when something goes wrong a friend will usually come by and mock you while they make Windows work again. Everyone needs to know a guy who can make Windows work again. Not because Windows likes to break, but because most people will put stupid software and malware on their computers and help break Windows.

These days though, Windows looks really nice, works really nice, and no matter what they say... you can still find more software for Windows, not for Mac.

Plus the price... you can get Windows cheap. Everyone makes Window's computers... well everyone except Apple. Buying a new product? It's going to work with Windows! Windows is Kleenex, Apple is more of a Puffs with Aloe. It feels nicer, but most people won't get it due to the price. Kleenex is cheap enough but does not tear up like store brand tissue.

Budding geeks like Windows because you can tear things up under the hood. It's easy to upgrade and parts are easy to find for that upgrade. Yeah, some business make a good bit of profit out of fixing PC's professionally, but computers are like car repair, it's only scary until you just get under the hood and start doing it.

At the end of the day, Windows works just fine. As fine as a Mac. Unless you do silly things and allow programs to hurt Windows. As the dominant operating system, Windows is the target of a bunch of attacks. Mostly because there are more potential victims, but also because some geeks get pretty darn pretentious and think they are sticking it to the man when they screw up a soccer mom's computer. Take that Bill Gates!

People who want to play video games use Windows. Their friends and family also use Windows so the gamer does not get angry and will continue to fix their computer after they porn down some malware...

Linux... dear sweet Linux. I was there when you were first born. It was exciting. Hell, it was sexy. Linux is akin to Star Trek where Windows is Star Wars. One is much more accessible than the other, but the less accessible one requires more brains to enjoy up front.

Yup, Linux is the "smart people" operating system. You control everything. Literally. If you don't like one thing about your operating system and are willing to learn, you can change it. Period. Linux puts more power in the hands of the end user than Apple or Windows would ever dream of doing. Linux trusts you to be smart, and if you screw yourself up... well wipe the drive and start over with your backup. You made one right? Right???

Linux will run on just about any machine. It's awesome like that. It's less about finding the right hardware and more about you having the will to make it happen.

Linux wants you to tinker under the hood. It encourages you to tinker under the hood. It gets lonely if you go out on Saturdays instead of tinkering under the hood. Not that Linux is clingy, it just likes to play.

The real problem with Linux is that it's not fantastic at any one thing other than being Linux. If you think Apple's software selection is "limited" Linux's software selection is non-existent. In the stores at least. Go into your local electronics store and ask for some software that will run on Linux. If they even know what to do, they are going to still tell you that they don't stock any.

In the Linux community it's different though. Linux has a bajillion applications that people have wrote. Many of them really work well too! Thing is, many of them answer problems you don't have... or didn't know you could have.

Still, Linux is the computer geeks wood shop. With this one tool you can make all kinds of things and impress your friends. Who will still ask you to fix Windows for them after they porn down the malware.

So who buys Linux? Nobody. The cool people download their own distro and hack it until it works. Linux is not for the average person. It scares them. It's too open, too free, and has no automated tours that trick you into using the default browser.

That noted, Linux is the most awesome operating system you aren't using today.

Hardware... don't be afraid of it. Just keep static electricity away and go slow. Pay attention to how things came out, and put them (or their replacements) back in the same way. It's really that easy. It just looks scary and geeky, but honestly hardware is as simple as putting the item on the board and running a CD these days.

Unless you have Linux. Then you have to write the CD full of drivers first. :)

So there you have it, the Secret.

What? You missed it? I used way too many words? Probably. Let me try the short version for you then...

The secret is that there is no "best" computer or operating system. There is merely the right one for you. Avoid getting into epeen contests over which one is better and you will have more time for cookies!

tesral
01-09-2009, 01:30 AM
The secret is that there is no "best" computer or operating system. There is merely the right one for you. Avoid getting into epeen contests over which one is better and you will have more time for cookies!

I still pine for my Amiga. Now that is a computer.

Edward
01-09-2009, 02:18 AM
The modern Apple software package, with it's Unix baseline... it's good. Unquestionably so. Packaged in the Apple hardware, the combination is graceful and elegant, like an European sports car.

I'd say that's the key: They control the software and the hardware. They control everything, when you get right down to it. A very successful approach.


Linux is akin to Star Trek where Windows is Star Wars. What's the difference between Star Trek and Star Wars?

Star Wars characters never set for stun.

So Windows must be Star Trek. It's permanently set for stun.


Unless you have Linux. Then you have to write the CD full of drivers first. :)Heh. A pretty good assessment. Linux has improved a lot in the last year or two, though. Or at least some distros have; Fedora is still about as bleeding edge as you can get, but Ubuntu has put a lot of work into being user-friendly and really does Just Work. If you haven't tried it lately, you might want to take it for a spin.


Avoid getting into epeen contests over which one is better and you will have more time for cookies!But the local LUG has cookies, too! The best of both worlds. :)

MortonStromgal
01-09-2009, 10:24 AM
They are each right for different people.


So true. For scientists who want the most accurate number crunching out there x86 architecture is not an option (I don't have any clue what they are using these days but when I was in school it was SPARC). But for the rest of us x86 gets close enough. For top secret data Solaris 8 I believe is still the highest ranked OS by the NSA for security (correct me unix guys if I'm wrong). Most people windows xp security is "fine".


I
Unless you have Linux. Then you have to write the CD full of drivers first. :)


Thats a minsnomer. Even in 1997 (thats when I started with slackware 4) Linux had a basic set of drivers, your hardware just might not use Unix standards. If the device worked in Unix it would work in linux. Unix (like Macs) controls hardware, if you want a printer to work on a Unix system the way in which your printer has to work has already been defined by Unix. This also adds the benifits of security as its not making unknown system changes to your computer when you add a printer. Theres nothing to stop a printer driver install in Windows from writing over your games folder. More recently Linux is using driver wrapers so you can use a custom driver without touching the kernel.

tesral
01-09-2009, 11:02 AM
Heh. A pretty good assessment. Linux has improved a lot in the last year or two, though. Or at least some distros have; Fedora is still about as bleeding edge as you can get, but Ubuntu has put a lot of work into being user-friendly and really does Just Work. If you haven't tried it lately, you might want to take it for a spin.


Not that accurate actually. I didn't have to download a single driver to install openSUSE 11, 10, 9 or 8.

On the other hand installing Windows on an IBM Thinkpad 600X required me to constantly search for and download drivers.

Thinkpad 600X Linux load time 45 minutes. Windows load time 4 hours.

Windows is not easier when you do not have the factory settings and drivers in your hot little paws.

Valdar
01-09-2009, 11:05 AM
You're talking about software development, though. I was talking about selling computers (and related electronics -- PDA's, point-of-sale terminals, etc.). A hardware vendor isn't going to be developing new applications, but they do need to customize the OS to their hardware platform if they want to ensure a good user experience. Vendors can't tinker with the Windows code; they have to take what Microsoft gives them.


Then, why hasn't control of the hardware and OS produced a workable 3D API, whereas lack of control of the hardware has? It would seem that Apple's vertical monopoly hasn't produced the results you said it would, at least in the 3D space. Possibly because Apple has no more control over the actual 3D accelerator hardware than Microsoft does...

MortonStromgal
01-09-2009, 12:58 PM
Heh. A pretty good assessment. Linux has improved a lot in the last year or two, though. Or at least some distros have; Fedora is still about as bleeding edge as you can get, but Ubuntu has put a lot of work into being user-friendly and really does Just Work. If you haven't tried it lately, you might want to take it for a spin.


The drivers have always been there but in recent years the auto detect has gotten a lot better. In the late 90s you had to know what chips your sound card was using and manually compile those into the kernel then configure them.


Not that accurate actually. I didn't have to download a single driver to install openSUSE 11, 10, 9 or 8.

On the other hand installing Windows on an IBM Thinkpad 600X required me to constantly search for and download drivers.

Thinkpad 600X Linux load time 45 minutes. Windows load time 4 hours.

Windows is not easier when you do not have the factory settings and drivers in your hot little paws.

The beauty of using generic drivers. Take printers CUPS is probably the most common printer driver used in Linux. Its up to the Manufacturers to build the printer CUPS compatible. There are a few companies like nvidia who still like to control the driver and refuse to conform but at leased they write Linux drivers now.


Then, why hasn't control of the hardware and OS produced a workable 3D API, whereas lack of control of the hardware has? It would seem that Apple's vertical monopoly hasn't produced the results you said it would, at least in the 3D space. Possibly because Apple has no more control over the actual 3D accelerator hardware than Microsoft does...

I believe direct X is just easier to use for people who don't have the time to spend. I can tell it draw grass 8x10 and it does I dont have to code pages defining grass. Like Java is way easier to code in than Assembly or Old school C and if you make mistakes its far more forgiving than C++

Valdar
01-09-2009, 01:25 PM
I believe direct X is just easier to use for people who don't have the time to spend. I can tell it draw grass 8x10 and it does I dont have to code pages defining grass. Like Java is way easier to code in than Assembly or Old school C and if you make mistakes its far more forgiving than C++

I was more referring to the reliability of DirectX vs. OpenGL. If you make a call to a new feature on a card that isn't Nvidia (even something as common as ATI), with DirectX, it works. With OpenGL, it quite often won't, and now you're chasing down hardware problems instead of writing your game.

As for ease of use of the API, I didn't find either DirectX or OpenGL to be all that intuitive, really, but high-performance APIs rarely are. D3DRM was quite easy to use, but you got less performance and features...

Duniagdra DaaMyour
01-09-2009, 02:08 PM
Wow. I didn't expect such a response in just a few days. All I intended to do was show a vid with some cool graphical design. Maybe even see someone pick up on the ending frame where the PC Transformer sends a message out to the internet calling for ALL PC's to Transform. That was a good message in part, because it says that no matter what MAC says or does, there's no stopping the PC. In fact, every time I see a MAC commercial, I'm always confused. I run Vista on my Laptop. I have no trouble using it. Granted, it's slowed down considerably, but if you've seen the volume of data files I have, as well as the arsenal of Programs I use, any computer would slow down, no matter its OS.

I think this whole MAC bashing the PC thing is really all about the simple fact the IBM Open Licensed their product so any entity could produce compatible and competitive hardware and software usable with the PC. This allowed many manufacturers to build a variety of third party components for the PC, thus bringing about the age of custom built computers. It was this alone that allowed the PC, then IBM, to surpass, and nearly bring an end to, the MAC, then known as Apple. Because of that, look at where computing technology has gone. In order for MAC to remain competitive, it must remain innovative and fresh. In order for the PC to remain competitive, it must continue to improve itself and evolve. Together, they continue to bring the computer world to new heights. Without one, the other would become stagnant and boring and technology would not have grown as fast as it did. Both are trying to encroach into the others niche. The MAC is trying to pitch itself as a business networking model, and the PC is trying to pitch itself as a tool for Multimedia and game design. Again the two, by competing against each other, will ultimately bring the computer industry to even greater heights. This simple fact can not be argued or disputed.

While the MAC is a good computer, it's pricing keeps it out of reach for the general public. The fact that you're stuck with no choice but going to a MAC Tech for any MAC issues, even more money out of you pocket.
Though the PC has it's issues, they're heard or the most because the PC is commonplace. However, anyone can take their PC to anyone who knows how to repair or will support the PC should they have trouble. This keeps service fees affordable to the general public. Especially when it is common fact that with a manual and some general common sense, most repairs can be done by the use him/her self. I love building my own PC. It's what I want, how I want it. You just can't beat that. And, for me, if something goes wrong, I maintain backups of all my data and programs all have a disc I load them from, I tear it down and build again. How many can do that with a MAC, or say that about a MAC.

Edward
01-09-2009, 03:23 PM
Not that accurate actually. I didn't have to download a single driver to install openSUSE 11, 10, 9 or 8.

It's a good description of the way Linux used to be, before the efforts to make it suitable for the average person. Nowadays it's a lot easier. Still, if you install it on a random assortment of hardware, you may have to look for one or two drivers -- probably for a modem (if you don't have broadband) or wireless card. Of course, you can always just buy a cheap modem or wireless card that you know is well-supported.

My company just finished doing some pretty extensive hardware testing of four different computer configurations under Ubuntu 8.10. Most parts were supported out of the box (plug and play, to use the Windows term). We decided against using a couple of winmodems that would have been more trouble than they were worth. (We went with the US Robotics 2976, which is a solid modem and works out of the box. You can pick it up for about $30.) We had to download drivers for four parts (between the four configurations): the Asus WL-130N, which supports the new N standard (and I think it will be included in the kernel within one or two updates, though I don't know for certain), the Asus Xonar HDAV1.3 sound card (which is very new and should be supported out of the box in the latest kernel -- the Xonar DX already is), the Digigram VX222e (a high-end sound card for audiophiles which is also very new, with the driver still in beta; it should be included in the kernel within one or two kernel updates), and the video card. You're almost always going to have to install a driver for a fairly recent video card, in Windows or Linux, but in most cases (except for the very latest cards) Ubuntu will do that automatically for you right after the installation. (Nvidia and AMD are hard-headed and don't play well with others.)

If you buy Linux preinstalled, you don't have to worry about drivers. And if you install it yourself and run into trouble, you can always get help from the local LUG.


On the other hand installing Windows on an IBM Thinkpad 600X required me to constantly search for and download drivers.

Thinkpad 600X Linux load time 45 minutes. Windows load time 4 hours.

Windows is not easier when you do not have the factory settings and drivers in your hot little paws.That's a good point. Most people think Windows is easier because they don't have to install it. If you buy Linux preinstalled from a reliable vendor, and you aren't stuck on a particular Windows-only application, Linux is just as easy to use. In fact, I would even say Linux is easier to use, because so much can be included directly in the OS. For example, Linux has always included a CD-burning application. I think Windows finally included one, but for years you had to install one separately. Similarly, Linux comes with OpenOffice (at no extra charge), as well as a ton of other useful applications. When I used to install Windows for my parents from time to time after they hosed their machines (before I switched them to Linux), I would have to install Windows and then install CD after CD of supplementary software. Now it's all included on the Linux CD in a single install.

The biggest reason Vista is perceived to be a bad OS is because so many people tried to install it, rather than buying it preinstalled. That was a result of the delay in releasing Vista and Microsoft's "Vista Compatible" campaign, in which they persuaded people to buy computers with XP before Christmas and then install Vista later. People discovered that installing Windows is not as easy as they thought. And, of course, there were a lot of driver issues. There are always driver issues with new versions of Windows, because the drivers are a black box. They have to be rewritten from scratch for each new Windows. Driver updates are much easier with Linux, because most drivers are open source and just need to be recompiled; you normally don't have to rewrite them. That's why the switch from 32-bit to 64-bit was relatively easy with Linux but quite difficult with Windows.


Then, why hasn't control of the hardware and OS produced a workable 3D API, whereas lack of control of the hardware has? It would seem that Apple's vertical monopoly hasn't produced the results you said it would, at least in the 3D space. Possibly because Apple has no more control over the actual 3D accelerator hardware than Microsoft does...

I'm talking strictly about the user experience, i.e. the way users perceive the computer they have just purchased. Apple has thoroughly integrated the software with the hardware and ensured that everything works together smoothly; as a result, the user experience is very pleasant. A good Linux vendor can do the same thing. This has nothing to do with the developer experience, though, because developers aren't working with a single platform (unless they're developing for a console); they develop for users who could have a wide variety of different hardware and software combinations.

The 3D API is dependant entirely on the software, because it's strictly about software development. Lack of control over hardware doesn't hamper software development, though it could hamper the end result (the way your specific game runs on a wide variety of Windows PC's). (Of course it affects troubleshooting for precisely that reason.) Microsoft is not at a disadvantage with software developers; indeed, it has a significant advantage, because Windows is a monopoly (over 70% marketshare).

Developing a game for Windows is just as easy as or easier than developing a game for the Mac or the Playstation. However, the way the game actually runs from the user perspective is likely to produce less frustration and a more pleasant user experience on the Mac or Playstation, because they're controlled platforms. The same is true of the Xbox, which is a platform Microsoft does control. (Yes, they don't control the 3D accelerator, but they have all the information they need about it.)

Note that I'm not a software developer; my impressions of development are just from talking to developers, not firsthand. I'm a sales guy (and I've handled customer service as well), so my experience is with the user perspective.


I run Vista on my Laptop. I have no trouble using it.

Did you buy it preinstalled? Do you use any programs which aren't compatible with Vista? Those are the key issues.

Freejack
01-09-2009, 03:37 PM
Did you buy it preinstalled? Do you use any programs which aren't compatible with Vista? Those are the key issues.

My wife got her Dell laptop back in November with Vista preinstalled. The only third party programs she's running is Paint Shop Pro 5 and Firefox. Still, she's been bugging me to install XP Home on it.

Carl

nijineko
01-09-2009, 03:40 PM
mac is a flavor of unix now, more or less. i use both mac and pc, when i'm doing graphical, music, or animation work, i find that my mac has an edge. when i'm doing just about anything else, the pcs are better for me. if you are not doing the former stuff, then save your money and buy a pc. i tell everyone that, and i'm considered a mac fan by most. if you want a "better" pc, then figure out how to build a pc that uses trinary. ^^

MortonStromgal
01-09-2009, 03:43 PM
My wife got her Dell laptop back in November with Vista preinstalled. The only third party programs she's running is Paint Shop Pro 5 and Firefox. Still, she's been bugging me to install XP Home on it.

Carl

Did you turn of User Account Control and put the look n feel back to XP?
95% of the complaints I've personally encountered (from a user level) can be fixed in 5-15 min. However the last 5% can be a *****

[edit] I've actually found symantec securty center to be a major "vista sucks" problem to. As soon as you remove it and use something else (i like clamwin) the problem goes away.

nijineko
01-09-2009, 03:46 PM
What's the best way to accelerate a Mac?

9.81 m/sē.

:flame:

for so long, that was so true! lol.

Freejack
01-09-2009, 04:37 PM
Did you turn of User Account Control and put the look n feel back to XP?
95% of the complaints I've personally encountered (from a user level) can be fixed in 5-15 min. However the last 5% can be a *****

[edit] I've actually found symantec securty center to be a major "vista sucks" problem to. As soon as you remove it and use something else (i like clamwin) the problem goes away.

She didn't care so much about the look and feel and I haven't heard any complaints about the security features. She had an old clunky Toshiba Satellite before (512M ram, 8M video) and it seemed a lot faster than the Dell Inspiron 1525 with the 3 Gigs of ram and much faster processor.

Carl

MortonStromgal
01-09-2009, 04:45 PM
She didn't care so much about the look and feel and I haven't heard any complaints about the security features. She had an old clunky Toshiba Satellite before (512M ram, 8M video) and it seemed a lot faster than the Dell Inspiron 1525 with the 3 Gigs of ram and much faster processor.

Carl

Id monitor/log the system performance for awhile. Sounds like a run away program (like I said symantec security center I have found to be the cause of "vista" problems frequently). I'm running an asus g50 laptop and can get 5 or 6 virtual sessions of server 2008 going while playing anime music videos without lag. Also you may want to look at the speed of the harddrive. 4800 rpm drives are dreadfully slow. Really after I tweeked vista it runs faster than xp for me, but I'm not trying to run vista on any non dual core system or with less than 2 gig of memory. This is mostly due to the XP multi-core support not being as good (xp was heaps better than 2k multi-cpu support though)

[edit] I also suggest never powering down vista if you can help it. It seams to run really well just putting it to sleep but boot times on vista without one of those fancy harddrives are slow. Also if shes got the Celeron version put XP on it... You really need a multi-cpu system with 2 gb of memory to get a benefit from vista I dont care what vista compatibility says.

[edit 2] my advise to people has been if your going to go vista suck it up and get a core 2 duo and 4+ gigs of memory with 64 bit vista. Be prepared to have to buy a new printer and other non-compatible with 64bit hardware. Also be prepared to have to run virtual pc for legacy software (or vmware) Otherwise buy a mac or install ubuntu. This is not an upgrade you can do piece meal.

Freejack
01-09-2009, 10:05 PM
Hers is the 1525 dual core E4200, 3 GB ram, 180 GB 5400 RPM drive. So it should be speedy enough. She does power it down when she's not using it and I don't think she'd be up for leaving it on all the time, even in sleep.

Carl

tesral
01-10-2009, 01:45 AM
I[edit 2] my advise to people has been if your going to go vista suck it up and get a core 2 duo and 4+ gigs of memory with 64 bit vista. Be prepared to have to buy a new printer and other non-compatible with 64bit hardware. Also be prepared to have to run virtual pc for legacy software (or vmware) Otherwise buy a mac or install ubuntu. This is not an upgrade you can do piece meal.

I have that sort of rig running openSUSE 11 with a networked color laser printer. 2.4 gig Core Duo, 4 gig of ram. Flies like a champ. Boots quickly. Wonderful computer.

Duniagdra DaaMyour
01-10-2009, 10:28 AM
Did you buy it preinstalled? Do you use any programs which aren't compatible with Vista? Those are the key issues.Yes, it came preinstalled on my laptop. I try my best to load only software/hardware that is compatible to Vista. For the most part, I find no trouble with it. When I do install something that says it's compatible, and I have trouble, I remove that something and no more trouble.

I find it funny that people feel such a need to down play any OS. there is no such thing in the world of electronics as a stable OS. everything has it's flaws. When everyone is able to understand that, the world will be a better place. MAC has not cornered the market on a perfect OS. It too has flaws. I don't care. I don't use MAC because of the price. If it were cheaper, I'd by one. They're good computers. But, I'd still use a PC even if I had a MAC. MAC has strengths where the PC lacks and the PC has strengths where the MAC lacks. What's the point in debating which is better when both are equally as good as the other in their respective strengths.

Freejack
01-10-2009, 10:56 AM
That's funny. Didn't you start this thread? :laugh:

Carl

Valdar
01-10-2009, 01:19 PM
I'm talking strictly about the user experience, i.e. the way users perceive the computer they have just purchased. Apple has thoroughly integrated the software with the hardware and ensured that everything works together smoothly; as a result, the user experience is very pleasant. A good Linux vendor can do the same thing. This has nothing to do with the developer experience, though, because developers aren't working with a single platform (unless they're developing for a console); they develop for users who could have a wide variety of different hardware and software combinations.

The 3D API is dependant entirely on the software, because it's strictly about software development. Lack of control over hardware doesn't hamper software development, though it could hamper the end result (the way your specific game runs on a wide variety of Windows PC's). (Of course it affects troubleshooting for precisely that reason.) Microsoft is not at a disadvantage with software developers; indeed, it has a significant advantage, because Windows is a monopoly (over 70% marketshare).

Developing a game for Windows is just as easy as or easier than developing a game for the Mac or the Playstation. However, the way the game actually runs from the user perspective is likely to produce less frustration and a more pleasant user experience on the Mac or Playstation, because they're controlled platforms. The same is true of the Xbox, which is a platform Microsoft does control. (Yes, they don't control the 3D accelerator, but they have all the information they need about it.)


The user experience for the Mac gamer is indeed less pleasant than for the PC gamer, because the availability of Mac games is a small fraction of those for PC. The Mac Gamer experience is typically, "Cool game- when's it coming out for Mac?". The answer is typically "Never, because the Mac 3D API isn't as reliable as that for Windows."

Your statement seems to be that Mac's vertical monopoly has led to a more reliable hardware-software platform (and when you're developing software that uses hardware, it's both). DirectX is reliable. OpenGL isn't. Vertical monopoly has not produced the same results as a market more open to innovation.

Anyway, getting to be a moot point as developers are moving off personal computers and onto consoles.

tesral
01-10-2009, 01:57 PM
I find it funny that people feel such a need to down play any OS. there is no such thing in the world of electronics as a stable OS. everything has it's flaws. When everyone is able to understand that, the world will be a better place. MAC has not cornered the market on a perfect OS. It too has flaws. I don't care. I don't use MAC because of the price. If it were cheaper, I'd by one. They're good computers. But, I'd still use a PC even if I had a MAC. MAC has strengths where the PC lacks and the PC has strengths where the MAC lacks. What's the point in debating which is better when both are equally as good as the other in their respective strengths.


My basic problem with the Mac started back in the classic days. Mac is a very much "don't touch me there" computer. I am a hands on kind of person. Don't tell me to not look under the hood.

PCs are harder to get and keep running due to the nature of the hardware, it is not integrated the way the Mac is. Now I have Amigas, the integrated software hardware factor of the Mac, but more open and accessible. Tight small code and an OS like a puppy dog, tail wagging and eager to do you bidding. They are so well built that the computer I bought in 1992 is STILL a useful piece of gear I can do production work it.

The problem is if you though Mac software was difficult to find. No one has made anything new for the Amiga in years.

Windows is clunky, and difficult to work with. Even when I used a Windows machine every day I was constantly over stressing the system by "Amigaing" the poor helpless thing. I would multi-task just a little too much and it would fall down. I finally got tired of the windows machine falling apart and installed Linux. I frankly never looked back. The time came I had to do three installs inside a week, each closer to the last, when the TCP/IP stack failed within 48 hours of the last install, I reached for Linux. I realized I was going to have to cold install a system I had spent a year tweaking to what I called perfect. If I had to start over, I was starting with something that didn't do this to me. That windows partition continued to break down until near the end it was virtually useless. I never did reinstall the system.

So, I've been using Linux and am reasonably happy with it.

Freejack
01-10-2009, 05:37 PM
I happened to stop into the BIOS on boot this afternoon and found the reason for my one video problem (won't display the center monitor on boot).

I have two video cards. An ATI Radeon 4870 PCI-E with 512M of ram that runs the center 21" Sony E500 for gaming purposes. The second card is an ATI Radeon 9250 PCI with 256M of ram that runs the two Acer AL1706 LCD monitors.

The default for the BIOS is to start the system on the PCI. There are options in the bios to start on PEG and PEG2. That would be PCI-Express (aka PCI-E).

I changed the option and it came up on the center monitor.

I do still get a blue screen on startup from time to time but a google search recommends a setting change which I haven't done yet. I need to have it do it again so I can note the error and look it up again.

Carl

MortonStromgal
01-11-2009, 12:03 AM
Hers is the 1525 dual core E4200, 3 GB ram, 180 GB 5400 RPM drive. So it should be speedy enough. She does power it down when she's not using it and I don't think she'd be up for leaving it on all the time, even in sleep.

Carl



yeah that should be more than enough for speedy performance. I wonder if its a dell 1525 issue. :confused: I cant imagine she picks up lots of spyware with firefox. The only think I can think of is logging it for awhile and possibly a reg and boot clean with ccleaner. I just notice vista handles sleep better as opposed to XP that seamed to need rebooted once a week. I've only rebooted vista when a patch required it or i took the laptop to another location.

Freejack
01-11-2009, 12:30 PM
yeah that should be more than enough for speedy performance. I wonder if its a dell 1525 issue. :confused: I cant imagine she picks up lots of spyware with firefox. The only think I can think of is logging it for awhile and possibly a reg and boot clean with ccleaner. I just notice vista handles sleep better as opposed to XP that seamed to need rebooted once a week. I've only rebooted vista when a patch required it or i took the laptop to another location.

She's only been using the box for about 2 months now. She's been pretty well educated on what not to click on. I've run scans on her prior system (2 years) and nothing popped up.

The only problem she had with the old laptop was when XP SP3 came out and killed her wireless connection. The same thing happened to my old XP Home box. I backed SP3 out and turned off updates for her laptop. I rebuilt my old box as a media server and the wireless device worked just fine even after installing SP3.

My new box has been working except for the weirdness with the 4870 video card. The first few times I accepted a patch from Microsoft, I'd lose the center monitor entirely and had to reboot. That and the blue screen on startup (which seems to be a known issue).

Carl

hueloovoo
01-11-2009, 01:49 PM
Vista likes to turn off my wireless now and then. I do not know why, but it irks me slightly.

Freejack
01-11-2009, 06:04 PM
Vista likes to turn off my wireless now and then. I do not know why, but it irks me slightly.

Rita's gets turned off now and then but it's because of the poor design of the Dell. The power cord is on the left side so she puts the laptop down next to her seat on the right side. Unfortunately the wireless tension slider switch is also on the right side. Once I figured out what she was doing, she started putting it down with the rear on the floor :)

Carl

cplmac
01-11-2009, 07:35 PM
OK, for all of you folks that are having problems with Vista, are you going to switch to Windows 7? I figured that by the time We would need to get a new computer, Vista would be here and gone and wouldn't need to worry about all the problems that is supposed to have.:)

hueloovoo
01-11-2009, 10:06 PM
Poor design is always fun. Whenever I pick up my laptop, the CD tray pops open. I don't go near the button, but pressure on the case anywhere on the left side tells it to open.

MortonStromgal
01-12-2009, 10:03 AM
OK, for all of you folks that are having problems with Vista, are you going to switch to Windows 7? I figured that by the time We would need to get a new computer, Vista would be here and gone and wouldn't need to worry about all the problems that is supposed to have.:)

I don't have much of a choice, I have to use whatever I have to support. Ideally someday I'll take the time to sit down with debian and get it working on my new laptop then just run all my windows stuff in vmware.


Rita's gets turned off now and then but it's because of the poor design of the Dell.

My old toshiba laptop had a wonderful (yeah right) design flaw with the pcmcia bus always being on even with no card inserted (did wonders for the battery life) They had a software workaround for XP but it took a year for the linux community to do the same thing.

jade von delioch
01-12-2009, 11:16 AM
This is pretty much one of those reasons why people do not come to the board as often as they once did. To many pointless threads that may or may not start flame wars that go no where important and helps no one.

kniltsol
01-12-2009, 11:17 AM
Honestly I use vista64 bit and it runs great. I have gotten every game I could get my hands on to run. To top if off I've never had it crash since I "completed" setting it up.

Macs well I love them too, I have a powerbook for use at home and at work we use them just to do catalog layouts, but I cant complain.

Linux-Works great as well, though teaching others isnt as friendly.....(depending which you use)

Duniagdra DaaMyour
01-12-2009, 11:40 AM
That's funny. Didn't you start this thread? :laugh:

Carl
Yes, I did start this thread, but not for the purpose of downplaying one OS over another. I thought the video was nicely done, graphics-wise. Now it's become a whole discussion on what OS is better. But hey, that's cool too I guess. It keeps people talking.:lol:

RealmsDM
01-12-2009, 01:01 PM
PC is still top dog.


Mac's are gaining ground every day, but its still a "iCult"

When business makes the switch, save for some visual arts & audio careers, then Mac's will have a fair shot at it. Plus, they need their own viable business & home office software. Everyone & their grandma knows how to use MS Word, y'know?

Valdar
01-12-2009, 01:01 PM
I've heard that it's a good idea to leave pretty much any computer running (except for laptops that you're taking with you). The constant heat up, cool down is bad for the hardware- like baking and freezing a sidewalk. Has anyone else heard otherwise?

nijineko
01-21-2009, 06:31 PM
they do have it, it's called open office. it's free.

Inquisitor Tremayne
01-22-2009, 11:53 AM
I haven't read the whole thread but I recently switch from Mac to PC.

#1 I had an original G4 tower that was so outdated it wasn't even funny. No CD burner. Yeah, for real.

#2 I did not want to spend 3 grand nor 15 hundred on a new laptop.

For those two reasons I switched to PC.

I have a new Acer laptop that is freaking awesome for all my menial tasks! All for a mere 800 bucks.

I have had 0 problems with Vista and have no problems running any games, including old ones like Neverwinter nights. I actually like Vista much better than any Mac OS.

My 2 cents.

nijineko
01-23-2009, 04:44 PM
you could have bought a top notch mac for $500. but as i frequently say, don't bother unless you are doing the few limited things that macs are good at.