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MortonStromgal
10-31-2008, 03:10 PM
Crazy simple idea...

use the nWOD potential damage system instead
strength+melee or brawl+weapon damage vs TN
dexterity+firearms or athletics+weapon damage vs TN

and move resistance rolls to
stamina+dodge or melee or brawl+ armor vs TN

this makes it a single opposed roll... I should have thought of that YEARS ago... any problems or ideas to improve it post em!

boulet
10-31-2008, 03:46 PM
I have a hard time remembering what the original of oWoD combat rolls was. I know I was running a few oWoD games, I should feel ashamed :)

What do you mean by "TN" ?

What does your solution offer that improves on both oWoD and nWoD ?

MortonStromgal
10-31-2008, 04:20 PM
I have a hard time remembering what the original of oWoD combat rolls was. I know I was running a few oWoD games, I should feel ashamed :)

What do you mean by "TN" ?

What does your solution offer that improves on both oWoD and nWoD ?

TN is target number.
oWOD was roll dex+skill to hit then if you hit roll str+weapon for damage or just weapon for range. Revised I believe modded this to take extra success from the to hit and add them to the damage roll. Then the defened CAN roll dex+dodge or parry to negate the to hit roll, either way they still get a soak roll for the damage.

I don't know that it is an improvement on nWOD, other than oWOD not having any combat merits to alter the rules. Which you could easily just not use combat merits in nWOD. It is faster than the oWOD combat system which is frankly the only thing that irritated me in the old system other than some particular powers (mechanically speaking). oWOD was a good system 90% of the time but combat is still very 90s and not up to todays fast play RPGs.

Webhead
10-31-2008, 05:28 PM
I stated my feelings about weapon damage adding to "to hit" die pools in the sister thread. ;)

I like the TN idea for defense, but I wouldn't combine "attack dice" and "damage dice" into the same die pool. To me, it just encourages players to carry around the biggest damage-dealing weapon, because not only will they dish out a lot of pain, they'll hit more often to boot. I'm not a fan of that idea...it outs the "stylish knife-fighter" in favor of the guy who carries the 6-damage die, 30-pound, FF7-style monster sword. YMMV.

MortonStromgal
10-31-2008, 05:41 PM
I stated my feelings about weapon damage adding to "to hit" die pools in the sister thread. ;)

I like the TN idea for defense, but I wouldn't combine "attack dice" and "damage dice" into the same die pool. To me, it just encourages players to carry around the biggest damage-dealing weapon, because not only will they dish out a lot of pain, they'll hit more often to boot. I'm not a fan of that idea...it outs the "stylish knife-fighter" in favor of the guy who carries the 6-damage die, 30-pound, FF7-style monster sword. YMMV.

You raised a good point in the other thread, I could make weapon damage and armor static :) still need to "fix" multiple action crazy.

Webhead
10-31-2008, 09:58 PM
You raised a good point in the other thread, I could make weapon damage and armor static :) still need to "fix" multiple action crazy.

I never liked the "splitting dice pools" concept of multiple actions. They were never very clear to me. I really liked the oWoD Revised rules that had you subtract a number of dice from each pool equal to the number of actions you are taking. If you take 2 actions, subtract 2 dice from all die pools. If you take 3 actions, you subtract 3 dice, etc. Very simple while also reigning in the "do it all at once" players.

By what I recall reading from nWoD, it looks like they took out multiple actions...as in, you can't take multiple actions. I don't like that idea either. It's a staple of WoD to be driving a car with one hand while shooting over your shoulder with the other. Still, it would be easy to house rule the oWoD rules, if one is so inclined.

boulet
11-01-2008, 10:11 AM
I agree that multiple actions is a critical part in tweaking this combat system. Especially if you consider celerity to bring extra actions like oWoD.

MortonStromgal
11-01-2008, 11:56 AM
By what I recall reading from nWoD, it looks like they took out multiple actions...as in, you can't take multiple actions. I don't like that idea either. It's a staple of WoD to be driving a car with one hand while shooting over your shoulder with the other. Still, it would be easy to house rule the oWoD rules, if one is so inclined.

multiple actions are still there in nWOD, they just do it through combat merits. The combat merits take an otherwise simple game and add exceptions. You can still drive and shoot to but IIRC theres no penalty you just cant fire your gun twice without combat merits.


I agree that multiple actions is a critical part in tweaking this combat system. Especially if you consider celerity to bring extra actions like oWoD.
Celerity now lets you dodge bullets as without celerity you defense is negated (other than armor) it does not let you go multiple times.

Its more fun for all in my experience with the new celerity. However combat merits flubbed it up, they seam to go against the core design of simplifying the system.


I never liked the "splitting dice pools" concept of multiple actions. They were never very clear to me. I really liked the oWoD Revised rules that had you subtract a number of dice from each pool equal to the number of actions you are taking. If you take 2 actions, subtract 2 dice from all die pools. If you take 3 actions, you subtract 3 dice, etc. Very simple while also reigning in the "do it all at once" players.

The thing I didn't like about any of their multiple action systems was you had to declare it before hand. I like to be able to notice and try to avoid attacks I didn't see before hand. Unisystem IIRC handles this nicely.

MortonStromgal
11-03-2008, 11:57 AM
So here is what I decided to go with so far

Damage is fixed at normal damage dice pool / 2
You can then add successes from the to hit roll as damage.

Dodge/Parry stays the same

Soak, not sure if I want to go static on this or not.

I personally will be using Perception+Skill for range and Dex+Skill for melee because I always loved the idea of Perception for Firearms (not sure where I first heard of it)

Not sure how to handle multiple actions yet, but I do like Revised better than 2nd in that regard.

Webhead
11-03-2008, 02:17 PM
...The thing I didn't like about any of their multiple action systems was you had to declare it before hand. I like to be able to notice and try to avoid attacks I didn't see before hand. Unisystem IIRC handles this nicely.

True. Star Wars D6 I think struck the right balance in this regard (and, incidentally, I ended up adapting the concept into Unisystem and WoD as well). In Star Wars D6, you had to declare any offensive multiple actions beforehand, but you could always take defensive actions at any time if necessary at an increasing penalty.

So, using oWoD Revised system, let's say you declare 2 actions in a round. That would be -2 dice to all die pools. An enemy attacks you and you wish to defend. You can take a 3rd action at a penalty of -3 dice. If you defend again later that round, the penalty increases to -4 dice, etc.

praksis
11-03-2008, 03:00 PM
So here is what I decided to go with so far

I personally will be using Perception+Skill for range and Dex+Skill for melee because I always loved the idea of Perception for Firearms (not sure where I first heard of it)

Just to add on this one: How about Dex with a max level = to perception. The ability to aim the weapon is more hand-eye coordination, but can't hit what you can't see (excluding automatic weapons & liberal use of bullets of course) and equally it doesn't matter if you can see a gnat at a mile if you can't hold a toothpick straight.

MortonStromgal
11-03-2008, 03:38 PM
True. Star Wars D6 I think struck the right balance in this regard (and, incidentally, I ended up adapting the concept into Unisystem and WoD as well). In Star Wars D6, you had to declare any offensive multiple actions beforehand, but you could always take defensive actions at any time if necessary at an increasing penalty.

So, using oWoD Revised system, let's say you declare 2 actions in a round. That would be -2 dice to all die pools. An enemy attacks you and you wish to defend. You can take a 3rd action at a penalty of -3 dice. If you defend again later that round, the penalty increases to -4 dice, etc.

At first I thought this idea sucked, I mean its easier to take multiple actions than normal as per revised if you were taking 3 actions total it would be -3, -4, -5 and now you would have potentially -0 (declared attack), -2 (defense), -3 (defense). However after thinking about this its a great idea because celerity is so overpowered anyway that this would sorta level that playing field a bit, I think... could be wrong


Just to add on this one: How about Dex with a max level = to perception. The ability to aim the weapon is more hand-eye coordination, but can't hit what you can't see (excluding automatic weapons & liberal use of bullets of course) and equally it doesn't matter if you can see a gnat at a mile if you can't hold a toothpick straight.

I can certainly see the point but if I'm going to use dex it would just be dex. No need to complicate things. Really the Firearms skill handles all of that its just I've always found shooting at the range a more mental than physical test and I just like the idea of perception and range combat. Not saying its better or more correct than dex, I just personally like it better. I would also think in a gun fight after the first shot perceiving the enemy is more key than turning your gun on him fast as your really not having a whole lot of time to aim. Maybe I'm completely outta whack though as I've never been in a gun fight and I only know what movies tell me.


I guess at some level to it would be nice if the fighter types could not be all physical. I really like how nWOD had defense as the lower of dex or wits. I suppose the nWOD defense is inline with your suggestion of the attack though. I guess lower of isn't so bad. Certainly makes sense when defending.

Webhead
11-03-2008, 05:40 PM
At first I thought this idea sucked, I mean its easier to take multiple actions than normal as per revised if you were taking 3 actions total it would be -3, -4, -5 and now you would have potentially -0 (declared attack), -2 (defense), -3 (defense). However after thinking about this its a great idea because celerity is so overpowered anyway that this would sorta level that playing field a bit, I think... could be wrong...

I like the system a lot. As I mentioned, I ended up porting it into Unisystem because none of the other options completely satisfied me. It prevents the problem of having to predict how many attacks to defend against (and possibly wasting actions). At the same time, the front-loaded penalties keep players from getting too greedy with their non-defensive actions.


I can certainly see the point but if I'm going to use dex it would just be dex. No need to complicate things. Really the Firearms skill handles all of that its just I've always found shooting at the range a more mental than physical test and I just like the idea of perception and range combat. Not saying its better or more correct than dex, I just personally like it better. I would also think in a gun fight after the first shot perceiving the enemy is more key than turning your gun on him fast as your really not having a whole lot of time to aim. Maybe I'm completely outta whack though as I've never been in a gun fight and I only know what movies tell me.

On a related note, I always liked that oWoD used Dex + Wits for Initiative. It's about how quickly your mind can recognize and react to danger and how quickly your body can follow suit.

Also, I recall rules (but I forget what book they come from) for oWoD about aiming with firearms which did something like what you're saying. As I recall, it went like so:


Every round you spend aiming a ranged weapon, you can add 1 die to your die pool for the next shot you make against your target. The maximum number of bonus dice you can gain from aiming is equal to your Perception score.

There is also the Unisystem rules for aiming that you might want to adopt:


If you spend a round aiming a ranged weapon, roll Perception + weapon skill. Each Success Level on this roll adds +1 to your next attack roll against the target.

Hope those give some ideas.

MortonStromgal
11-03-2008, 06:27 PM
Unisystem for the win! that is about on (and makes aiming worth it) though my mind still wants to say dex is more important for aiming and perception is more important from the hip :confused: my sense of reality must be off.



On a related note, I always liked that oWoD used Dex + Wits for Initiative.

You mean nWOD?(I think nWOD is wits+composure) oWOD was wits+alertness at leased in every edition I remember VtM 2, VtM Revised, DA.

Webhead
11-03-2008, 08:14 PM
...You mean nWOD?(I think nWOD is wits+composure) oWOD was wits+alertness at leased in every edition I remember VtM 2, VtM Revised, DA.

Nope. oWoD 2e Revised (at least in Revised Vampire and Mage). Original 2e was Wits + Alertness, rolled just like any other test, collecting successes. Revised 2e was different. You rolled 1d10 and added your dots in Dex + Wits to the total. That was your initiative roll. Even though it was a slightly different system, it was easier and faster to use and track than the old way to me, so I grew to like it.

Example:

My PC has Dex 2 and Wits 3. When it is time to roll initiative, I roll a d10 and get "7". I add 2 from Dex and 3 from my Wits and I get "12" (7 + 2 + 3). Thus, my initiative number is "12".

MortonStromgal
11-03-2008, 08:37 PM
Nope. oWoD 2e Revised (at least in Revised Vampire and Mage). Original 2e was Wits + Alertness, rolled just like any other test, collecting successes. Revised 2e was different. You rolled 1d10 and added your dots in Dex + Wits to the total. That was your initiative roll. Even though it was a slightly different system, it was easier and faster to use and track than the old way to me, so I grew to like it.


That is wrong, I don't remember that... *grabs VtM Revised, flipping through it grumbling about how wrong webhead is* see page 207 it clearly says
Everyone, player and Storyteller character alike, rolls on die and adds it to their initiative rating [Dexterity + Wits]; :eek: huh :confused: I guess I should have played more revised edition! :lol:

Webhead
11-03-2008, 08:54 PM
That is wrong, I don't remember that... *grabs VtM Revised, flipping through it grumbling about how wrong webhead is* see page 207 it clearly says
Everyone, player and Storyteller character alike, rolls on die and adds it to their initiative rating [Dexterity + Wits]; :eek: huh :confused: I guess I should have played more revised edition! :lol:

Yeah, most of my players didn't believe me either. It's one of those tiny rules changes that nobody bothered to pay attention to, I guess. Of course, since Revised VtM was the first WoD book that I owned, I picked up on it right away. ;)

You'd be surprised how resistant some people were when I tried to convince them that it really was in there. :)

GoddessGood
11-04-2008, 10:34 AM
Many of the changes being talked about have been put into effect in Exalted 2e combat. It's a tick-based system rather than turn-based, though.

Each character's combat action goes through a 10-step process (I know, it sounds clunky, but with practice it gets quicker).
1) Declare attack: Describe your attack(s) and list any powers you want to use to improve it, if applicable. You can also decide not to attack and do some other action (see below).
2) Target declares defense: Target declares whether he will dodge, parry (block) or soak the attack(s). Each defense is a pre-calculated static value.
3) Roll attack: Roll Dex + [Archery, Martial Arts, Melee or Thrown] + Accuracy of the weapon. Hope to achieve more successes than your target's static defense value. TN in exalted is always 7, and 10's count as two successes.
4) Re-roll attack: Certain powers allow the player to re-roll, and this is done now.
5) Apply defense: Subtract a number of successes from the to-hit roll equal to the target's defense value. Note extra successes.
6) Defense "re-roll": Certain powers allow the player to improve their defense if an attack would hit but before the damage is determined. These are used now.
7) Calculate "raw" damage: Add Strength + Ability + Damage of the weapon + Extra successes. Don't forget modifiers.
8) Apply defense: Subtract the target's soak from the raw damage and roll for damage.
9) Counterattack: Certain powers allow the player (in this case the target) to make a counterattack. This is done now.
10) Apply results: Apply health levels of damage to the target, if applicable.

Like I said, clunky, but it speeds up as you become familiar with it and many of the steps are routinely skipped since they only get used when someone is using extra powers. Yes, it looks like soak is applied twice, but in practice it is not. If the defense the target declares in step 2 is soak, then all successes on the to-hit roll become "extra" successes for the purpose of calculating raw damage. The target's defense is then applied against the raw damage in step 8.

Taking an action in combat decreases your static defense values, usually -1. If I attack you, it makes me slightly less able to defend myself against other attacks. Likewise if I'm busy defending against someone else it's harder for me to defend against you. Some other actions and their associated defense penalties:
Aim (-1): Time spent aiming increases your to-hit pool (up to a limit). The focus required to aim decreases your defense.
Dash (-2): To run full out makes it hard to defend yourself.
Guard (-0): Taking a defensive stance makes you harder to hit
Attack (-1): Attacking normally imposes a -1 penalty to future defense
Flurry (Varies): Launching a flurry of actions (usually attacks) can greatly decrease your defense value. Add all penalties for all actions taken in a flurry and subtract from your defense value.

Attacking a lot can overextend you, but every time you attack, your opponent's defense goes down by 1 as well. This is called an onslaught penalty. Coordinating attacks against a single opponent drives down their defense even more. Soak values, however, do not decrease due to actions as they represent the natural hardiness of the character and any armor they are wearing.

When does my defense come back? On my next action, all defense values "refresh" back to their original totals (minus any wound penalties I may have taken).

boulet
11-04-2008, 11:09 AM
That's a nice presentation of Exalted 2e combat. I admit there is quite an elegance to it, and the click based time model is very good at representing the difference between slow and fast fighters. I suppose with the proper cheat sheets, tick clock representation and a good knowledge of the system in general it makes for a very tactically challenging and epic combat. My problem now is that the learning curve seems so steep, the list of "powers" (can't remember their name right now) is such a jungle written in a very dry technical way, that without someone to show you the way it's a daunting perspective.

If this game had been the first game I bought, I honestly doubt I would still roleplay by now :redface:. But I've been inspired by your presentation and I'll read the Exalted book once more, if just to try to wrap my mind around it.

GoddessGood
11-04-2008, 02:15 PM
That's a nice presentation of Exalted 2e combat. I admit there is quite an elegance to it, and the click based time model is very good at representing the difference between slow and fast fighters. I suppose with the proper cheat sheets, tick clock representation and a good knowledge of the system in general it makes for a very tactically challenging and epic combat. My problem now is that the learning curve seems so steep, the list of "powers" (can't remember their name right now) is such a jungle written in a very dry technical way, that without someone to show you the way it's a daunting perspective.
Oh yes, I won't deny that cheat sheets (http://www.dcs-designs.de/exalted/) (items 2 and 3) and combat aids are almost required to speed up combat. I myself have a few favorites, including the infamous battle wheel that helps keep track of what tick it is (some keep track of what defense penalties each combatant is suffering). The learning curve is somewhat steep, and that's why I'm extremely thankful for the patience of my current group :redface: The powers are called Charms, and the great bulk of them don't need to be considered for a starting character as they are only accessible at higher levels. The way I keep them straight is by concentrating on the effect I want rather than what an individual Charm does. It's easier to go looking for a counterattack Charm or a damage boosting Charm than it is to read through those dozens of pages.

If this game had been the first game I bought, I honestly doubt I would still roleplay by now :redface: But I've been inspired by your presentation and I'll read the Exalted book once more, if just to try to wrap my mind around it.
It's true, I was won over by the setting and not the system. Thanks for the compliment, I'm glad to help spread the infection that is my favorite game :)

Webhead
11-04-2008, 02:27 PM
...It's true, I was won over by the setting and not the system. Thanks for the compliment, I'm glad to help spread the infection that is my favorite game :)

Aren't we all! I have trouble picking just one! :decision: :faint:

MortonStromgal
02-18-2009, 12:22 PM
So over the weekend I found a post (that I can't find again) of someone using exalted 2e minus the charms and ticks to speed up oWOD combat. What do y'all think of that?

GoddessGood
02-18-2009, 02:54 PM
So over the weekend I found a post (that I can't find again) of someone using exalted 2e minus the charms and ticks to speed up oWOD combat. What do y'all think of that?
So ... basically the same, just using static defense values? I'd have to say that, in my opinion, the static DV mechanic greatly speeds things up. I struggle to remember what combat runs like in oWoD, but if I remember right it goes like this:

1. Attacker rolls to attack
2. Defender rolls to dodge or block
3. Excess attack successes added to damage roll
4. Attacker rolls to damage
5. Defender rolls to soak
6. Excess damage successes are health levels of damage dealt.

So making defenses static would look like this:

1. Attacker rolls to attack vs. Defender's declared defense
2. Excess attack successes added to damage roll.
3. Attacker rolls damage vs. Defender soak
4. Excess damage successes are damage dealt.

Greatly reduces the steps, but the math is still omnipresent.

Bearfoot_Adam
02-19-2009, 01:29 PM
I really think that NWOD did a nice job of speeding up combat.

Att+Ability+ weapon- Defense = damage done

As I recall 1e Exalted kind of split the differrance here and had soak be automatic which is nice.

Also in owod success rolls to hit were only added to damage on ranged attacks. melee only used Str+damage

Webhead
02-19-2009, 02:04 PM
...Also in owod success rolls to hit were only added to damage on ranged attacks. melee only used Str+damage

True. Mostly likely an early attempt to balance ranged weapon damage output with melee damage since ranged weapons otherwise only take dice from 1 die pool while melee weapons take from 2.

Still, considering that a handgun does 4 dice of damage while a knife in the hands of an average person only does 3 (2 + 1), it seems reasonable for a GM to rule otherwise if they want those successes to represent something akin to "critical hits" which would apply regardless of what weapon you were using.

furashg
08-19-2011, 09:50 AM
Did this ever get resolved into a streamlined nWoD dice mechanics upgrade? I don't want to choose from the ideas above because I'm not a mechanic.

MortonStromgal
08-23-2011, 01:13 PM
Did this ever get resolved into a streamlined nWoD dice mechanics upgrade? I don't want to choose from the ideas above because I'm not a mechanic.

Well I've been using static damage and soak so far and like it alot.