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MortonStromgal
10-20-2008, 04:13 PM
Figured this out at the HPB today

AD&D 1st edition +1 CON
AD&D 2nd edition +1 INT, -1 WIS
3.0 +2 CON, -2 STR

What the heck mutated them in 2e? and how did they mutate back?

tesral
10-20-2008, 07:34 PM
Figured this out at the HPB today

AD&D 1st edition +1 CON
AD&D 2nd edition +1 INT, -1 WIS
3.0 +2 CON, -2 STR

What the heck mutated them in 2e? and how did they mutate back?

Good question. No good answers. Writer of the moment and how they saw them.

boulet
10-20-2008, 08:00 PM
http://www.danger-seekers.com/2001/images/amelie3.jpg

Maybe it depends what country they're at ?

Mirina
10-20-2008, 10:29 PM
http://www.danger-seekers.com/2001/images/amelie3.jpg

Maybe it depends what country they're at ?

:rofl:

nijineko
10-21-2008, 12:45 AM
oddly enough, the thumbnail that looks nicely manicured, caught my eye more than the gnome. maybe it's just the glare of the bulb. ^^ although, that gnome is quite humorous. =D

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-21-2008, 01:55 PM
I'd give 'em a +1 Con, maybe +2, and leave it at that. Thick skin and all.

If i was forced to doc them on a stat, i subtract from Charisma.

fmitchell
10-21-2008, 02:39 PM
I'd give 'em a +1 Con, maybe +2, and leave it at that.

Hey, theyre freakin'2 ft tall.

In 3rd Edition they were taller than halflings, who were 3 feet tall.

Gnomes have always been the odd race out: not quite dwarves, not quite halflings. That's probably why 4th "demoted" them.

(CAVEAT: I'm sick of the Tolkien races: tiny burly Vikings, oh-so-wonderful pointy-eared jerks, child-sized sneak thieves, sallow/swarthy evil apemen who aren't a racist/classist stereotype at all, the whole lot. I've thought of tossing "races" entirely except for races of humans, or introducing replacements based on other folklore. There's also my "move one place" idea: dwarfish protectors of the woods and wild places, swarthy and ugly masters of metalworking and delving, and beautiful pointy-eared homicidal maniacs.)

Bearfoot_Adam
10-21-2008, 02:50 PM
oddly enough, the thumbnail that looks nicely manicured, caught my eye more than the gnome. maybe it's just the glare of the bulb. ^^ although, that gnome is quite humorous. =D

I'm guessing that is from Amelie

boulet
10-21-2008, 03:15 PM
I'm guessing that is from Amelie
You're the happy winner of one free ride ticket for PM Spam on PenAndPaperGames !

nijineko
10-21-2008, 07:48 PM
when playing the world setting of my own design, and not the modified greyhawk setting that i use as default for everyone else, i have a whole host of races of my own origin.

MortonStromgal
10-23-2008, 11:48 AM
I always thought cat-folk and lizard men should be standard PC races... However I am rethinking the cat-folk as the furries grow. Some of them are fine people, others... well they make the kid who insists hes a real vampire look tame.

tesral
10-23-2008, 11:51 AM
I always thought cat-folk and lizard men should be standard PC races... However I am rethinking the cat-folk as the furries grow. Some of them are fine people, others... well they make the kid who insists hes a real vampire look tame.

It's not the fault of the cat people. Dude, you going to find flaky people into everything. I have a cat people and coon people. And the possibility of running an "Exotic" a half animal half human. No freaks yet, outside of the usual types that play RPG.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-23-2008, 12:31 PM
I'm not really up for cat people, sounds more sci fi to me, but i do like lizard men in my game. Though i've played in so many games over the years, i cant even count the different pc races included. each new dnd game im involved with is a whole new experience. Pretty cool.

boulet
10-23-2008, 12:56 PM
I always thought cat-folk and lizard men should be standard PC races... However I am rethinking the cat-folk as the furries grow. Some of them are fine people, others... well they make the kid who insists hes a real vampire look tame.
Some topics are like a viral marketing campaign. I would swear there's a "Furry" thread on almost every RPG board lately :)

Kalanth
10-23-2008, 01:14 PM
Good question. No good answers. Writer of the moment and how they saw them.

I think Dragonlance had a part in that decision, and the Tinker Gnome. Smart race that invented many "modern marvels" and yet was not very wise which resulted in many of the inventions malfunctioning. I know that Dragonlance Gnomes are a reason that a lot of people play them hyperactive and speak in run on sentences. Kender influenced a lot of people to play Halflings wrong as well.

fmitchell
10-23-2008, 02:36 PM
WARNING: My standard rant against RPG races follows. If you're tired of it, read no further.

"Races" in RPG generally stem from Tolkien, or Tolkien as adapted in D&D. Other fantasy authors generally stuck to human main characters (Howard, Leiber, Dunsany), or interpreted mythological creatures their own way (e.g. Moorcock, C. S. Lewis, E. R. Eddison). Oftentimes said "races", like the "aliens" in SF, come off as funny-looking humans (or people in animal suits) with one or two exaggerated yet universal character traits. Even shifting from elves/dwarves/halflings to cats/dogs/mice won't really cure that.

The two approaches I prefer:


Iron Heroes lets (human) characters customize their characters with "traits", based on their background (city rat, forest dweller, desert nomad, seafarer, etc.), physical traits (large, small, demon-blooded, lithe, beguiling, etc.), and mental/cultural traits (religious, perceptive, well-travelled, etc.). That way, a PC can customize his character with little bonuses to stats and skills while creating an interesting background. The GM can also designate certain traits common to certain areas of his world; "background" traits work best (how can you be a seafarer in a landlocked kingdom?), but perhaps women from Nefarsi are known for being Beguiling, and most people of Iskander are demon-touched.

If you want non-humans, really make them non-human. Glorantha does well here: elves are motile plants who guard their native forests, dwarfs think like robots, and dragonewts are way strange. (Never mind the intelligent tapirs whose most prized possessions are magical thumbs, and eat "herd men" who are unintelligent humans.) Witchcraft has the Bast, intelligent house-cats only some of whom can shapeshift into a human form; what's life like when you're less than two feet long/tall and have no hands? Even among humanoids, Moorcock's Melniboneans, Eldren, and Vadagh were more than pointy-eared weird-eyed folk; they had a unique perspective on the "younger races", and often being the last of their kind made them even stranger.

nijineko
10-23-2008, 04:14 PM
my races follow a long and complex morphology involving not only the choices that a people make which affect themselves, but the choices they make that affect another people. the lines between people and people blur like the reflection of sunlight shattering against the unyeilding surface of water. the rich earth of racial sorrow yeilds the seedling hope of new races. the chaos of change is the order of law expressed.

MortonStromgal
10-23-2008, 04:27 PM
If you want non-humans, really make them non-human. Glorantha does well here: elves are motile plants who guard their native forests, dwarfs think like robots, and dragonewts are way strange. (Never mind the intelligent tapirs whose most prized possessions are magical thumbs, and eat "herd men" who are unintelligent humans.) Witchcraft has the Bast, intelligent house-cats only some of whom can shapeshift into a human form; what's life like when you're less than two feet long/tall and have no hands? Even among humanoids, Moorcock's Melniboneans, Eldren, and Vadagh were more than pointy-eared weird-eyed folk; they had a unique perspective on the "younger races", and often being the last of their kind made them even stranger.



The problem is Roleplaying something that foreign (like Hivers from Traveller)... Your a plant GO! uhhh uhhh I like sun... Not saying it can't be done but its very difficult and highly interpritive.

fmitchell
10-23-2008, 05:17 PM
The problem is Roleplaying something that foreign (like Hivers from Traveller)... Your a plant GO! uhhh uhhh I like sun... Not saying it can't be done but its very difficult and highly interpritive.

Most of the "truly alien" creatures are best left in the GM's hands, to give them a sense of otherness. (Plus, most of those would have no reason for "adventuring".) An experienced roleplayer, though, can do justice to something almost familiar but still "off": a Melnibonean, a vampire (in a mortal-centered campaign), a talking housecat (or telepathic but mute housecat?), even one of the rare adventuring Aldryami (Gloranthan elves) ... if the GM gives enough guidance.

Having a strange biology helps a lot in getting into the mindset. A housecat can't do a lot of things humans take for granted; vampires or Aldryami have special needs, whether it's lack of sunlight and blood or plenty of sunlight and water. If the GM drives home those restrictions or dependencies, at least to establish how the player will get around them, most players will start thinking like such creatures.

Also, a lot depends on the NPC reactions to PC or NPC nonhumans. If an NPC barkeep is blase about an elf entering his establishment, the PCs will be too. Compare, though, to the reception Elric got in one of his books, where the barkeep was both angry and scared, and threw out both Elric's mug and his silver because they were cursed. In a (now ending) 4e campaign, I played a Tiefling born to humans who obsessively tried to hide her horns and tail under stupidly large hats and loose clothing, while simultaneously wanting to scream out her true nature ... all because most yahoos wouldn't know a tiefling from Beelzebub himself.

Not that there aren't plenty of sources. Most people have seen cats. The RuneQuest forums are full of speculation about what being an Aldryami might be like; one person suggested that the straight lines of Man's world would freak them out since they're used to the curves and ragged edges of nature. GMs almost have to decide what vampires *aren't* like, given all the vampire stories that have come out since Carmilla and Dracula.

Making non-humans not exactly human takes some initial effort by the GM, but it's worth it ... if only to make elves more than "+2 Dex +2 Wis Move 7 blahdy blahdy blah".

tesral
10-23-2008, 06:20 PM
Making non-humans not exactly human takes some initial effort by the GM, but it's worth it ... if only to make elves more than "+2 Dex +2 Wis Move 7 blahdy blahdy blah".

There is a reason my player's manual starts with 30 pages of cultural information.

nijineko
10-23-2008, 07:33 PM
and the dm's manual (if you ever wrote one) with even more, i'm sure. ^^