PDA

View Full Version : Trip and Knock-Down



zergrusheddie
10-09-2008, 10:04 AM
Here's something to ponder:

Knock-Down
Pre-req: BAB +2, Improved Trip, Strength of 15
Benefit: Whenever you deal 10 or more damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack against the same target.

Improved Trip:
Pre-req: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: Does not proke an Attack of Opportunity, +4 on opposed Strength check and"If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadnít used your attack for the trip attempt. "

How does this work? The Fighter attacks, hits for 15, uses Knock-Down to Trip, succeeds, and than uses Improved Trip to get a free swing against the floored enemy?
If it does not work that way, than what is the point to taking Knock-Down? Why not just use Trip than attack :confused:
On a side note, do you think that Improved Trip is too powerful?

Best of luck
-Eddie

Webhead
10-09-2008, 10:14 AM
My on-the-spot reading of how these rules interact is that it would work like so:

1) You make a normal attack.

2) If you hit and deal 10 or more damage, Knock-Down allows you to make an immediate Trip attack.

3) If the Trip attack succeeds, Improved Trip allows you to make an immediate attack against the target.

Now, is that cheesy and possibly broken? Yes. But that's how the rules seem to be reading together.

What book is Knock-Down from, by the way? That might be the first clue as to its game balance.

nijineko
10-09-2008, 08:26 PM
your reading is correct.

considering that the trip and grapple rules are somewhat overbearing in d&d, even i (mr-rule-of-yes) would find this to be a very powerful combo. i too would be interested in knowing what book it comes from.

zergrusheddie
10-10-2008, 08:58 AM
It's from "Sword and Fist."
A Fighter at level 2 can move 30, swing with a Great-Sword at 2d6+6, preform a Trip attack at +8, than do another siwng at 2d6+6 at an additional +4 to hit? :eek:
Of course, this feat requires someone to take a Powerful Feat, a nigh-useless Feat, have a 13 Int, and have a 15 Strength.

Where it gets down-right silly is when a Monk takes this Feat. Move 60, Attack, Trip, Attack. Opponent stands up, you take the attack of opportunity, Trip, Attack. Against an opponent that can move twice as fast as you BEFORE you a Tripped is going to take 2 attacks at you a round after moving to engage. So, at higher levels with the correct buffs and feats, Trip can be Save or Die?

In lieu of this interesting fact, is there a way to avoid getting Attacked while standing up?

Webhead
10-10-2008, 09:44 AM
...In lieu of this interesting fact, is there a way to avoid getting Attacked while standing up?

I don't know if it is core 3.5 or not, but I have seen versions of the Tumble/Acrobatics skill that allow you to make a check to stand up without provoking an AoO. Also, I'm not sure if the Instant Stand feat specifically allows it not to provoke an AoO, but as a GM, I would rule it so.

Yes, that feat combo seems rather nasty. Combined with any of Cleave, Great Cleave or Circle Kick, you've got the potential for a living blender of badassery.

You could even incorporate the Knock Down/Improved Trip combo with a Charge, move double your speed and get a +2 to the attack roll.

zergrusheddie
10-10-2008, 10:37 AM
I don't know if it is core 3.5 or not, but I have seen versions of the Tumble/Acrobatics skill that allow you to make a check to stand up without provoking an AoO. Also, I'm not sure if the Instant Stand feat specifically allows it not to provoke an AoO, but as a GM, I would rule it so.

Yes, you can do a Tumble check DC 35 to stand as a Free Action. Where it gets to the realm of debate is Instant Stand. It states that you can stand up as a Free action, but not that it stops the AoO. Instant Stand would be useless and a half if it did provoke AoO.

Ed uses Instant Stand to stand up as a Free Action.
Tim takes the AoO and preforms Knock-Down to trip Ed.
Ed now tries standing up as a Standard Action
Tim takes the AoO and preforms Knock-Down to trip Ed.
Ed moves 15 feet.
Tim moves 15 and hits Ed once,
Ed takes a Full Round Attack option on himself and dies.
:laugh:

Igbutton
10-10-2008, 07:15 PM
Keep in mind Sword and Fist is 3.0 not 3.5 so technically it's not a valid feat.

Not that there is any lack of powerful feats that affect trip attacks. The only huge difference in terms of power is how low level this feat is.

nijineko
10-10-2008, 07:20 PM
your reference to self immolation reminded me... technically, and just a random bit of trivia, seppuku requires five seperate attacks weilding a weapon two-handed, and so is beyond the capabilities of most d&d characters.

you should see the line up of charge related feats i've put together. ^^

and when dealing with the AoO, don't forget the feats that allow you to take an AoO if they attack and miss, and then the one that allows you to take an AoO if they attack and hit. ^^ make sure you max your dex.

ignimbrite
10-13-2008, 02:58 PM
It's from "Sword and Fist."
A Fighter at level 2 can move 30, swing with a Great-Sword at 2d6+6, preform a Trip attack at +8, than do another siwng at 2d6+6 at an additional +4 to hit? :eek:
Of course, this feat requires someone to take a Powerful Feat, a nigh-useless Feat, have a 13 Int, and have a 15 Strength.

Where it gets down-right silly is when a Monk takes this Feat. Move 60, Attack, Trip, Attack. Opponent stands up, you take the attack of opportunity, Trip, Attack. Against an opponent that can move twice as fast as you BEFORE you a Tripped is going to take 2 attacks at you a round after moving to engage. So, at higher levels with the correct buffs and feats, Trip can be Save or Die?

In lieu of this interesting fact, is there a way to avoid getting Attacked while standing up?

Please don't forget that AoO happen before the action that triggered them. So if there is an AoO for standing up you get the AoO before they stand up ... you cannot trip someone who is prone ... so they get to stand up anyway and you don't get to make a trip attack as the AoO, it is just an attack.

zergrusheddie
10-14-2008, 08:58 AM
Please don't forget that AoO happen before the action that triggered them. So if there is an AoO for standing up you get the AoO before they stand up ... you cannot trip someone who is prone ... so they get to stand up anyway and you don't get to make a trip attack as the AoO, it is just an attack.

Ahh, of course. Doesn't matter too much though, because Mr. Fighter is screwed if he is fighting another Fighter or Monk who can make more than one attack a round.

Jcosby
10-16-2008, 11:24 AM
Yes, you can do a Tumble check DC 35 to stand as a Free Action. Where it gets to the realm of debate is Instant Stand. It states that you can stand up as a Free action, but not that it stops the AoO. Instant Stand would be useless and a half if it did provoke AoO.

Ed uses Instant Stand to stand up as a Free Action.
Tim takes the AoO and preforms Knock-Down to trip Ed.
Ed now tries standing up as a Standard Action
Tim takes the AoO and preforms Knock-Down to trip Ed.
Ed moves 15 feet.
Tim moves 15 and hits Ed once,
Ed takes a Full Round Attack option on himself and dies.
:laugh:


Problem with this, is that you can not perform anything but a basic attack with an AOO.


JC

Jcosby
10-16-2008, 11:36 AM
Here's something to ponder:


Knock-Down
Pre-req: BAB +2, Improved Trip, Strength of 15
Benefit: Whenever you deal 10 or more damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack against the same target.

Improved Trip:
Pre-req: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: Does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity, +4 on opposed Strength check and ďIf you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadnít used your attack for the trip attempt. "

How does this work? The Fighter attacks, hits for 15, uses Knock-Down to Trip, succeeds, and than uses Improved Trip to get a free swing against the floored enemy?
If it does not work that way, than what is the point to taking Knock-Down? Why not just use Trip than attack
On a side note, do you think that Improved Trip is too powerful?

Best of luck
-Eddie

Benefit

You do not provoke an attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm) when you attempt to trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadnít used your attack for the trip attempt.


Ok, so by taking 3 feats, having two stat pre-req's and a BAB of +2 you can get an extra "basic" attack if you deal more then 10 damage to an target. That's not really an over powered feat by any means. People in this thread are forgetting you can NOT do special attacks while making an extra attack caused by an AOO.

So, you move to your target you make an attack you deal 10 or more damage, you then get to make a "trip" attempt. Nothing in the feat says you will auto succeed. IF you succeed on a Grapple (Trip) check you then trip your target making them prone and you get an AOO based on the fact that you have Improved Trip. You can then take 1 basic attack against that target.

More over, that opponent is now prone while in combat. He will have to stand up, another AOO, can be sneak attacked and other options. Over all it's not a bad feat at all and not over powered considering the amount of pre-req's are required.

JC

ignimbrite
10-16-2008, 03:21 PM
So, you move to your target you make an attack you deal 10 or more damage, you then get to make a "trip" attempt. Nothing in the feat says you will auto succeed. IF you succeed on a Grapple (Trip) check you then trip your target making them prone and you get an AOO based on the fact that you have Improved Trip. You can then take 1 basic attack against that target.
More over, that opponent is now prone while in combat. He will have to stand up, another AOO, can be sneak attacked and other options. Over all it's not a bad feat at all and not over powered considering the amount of pre-req's are required.

umm Jcosby pretty sure that when you use Improved Trip you don't get an AoO after tripping someone, just the normal extra attack.
Additionally, your wording sounds like a prone character is denied dex to AC, which is wrong (and probably not what you actually implied).

I'd say the real benefit of the combination of feats is that you get to make a normal attack which can result in a trip attempt which can result in a prone opponent and another free attack. Effectively this gives you the benefit of gaining two damage dealing attacks instead of the one damage dealing attack from improved trip. It is not really overpowered, you have to have the stats and spend three feats to make it work.

Webhead
10-16-2008, 03:32 PM
This issue just harps on one of the reasons I dislike the AoO system...over-complication of a process (combat) that is already the most detailed and complex part of the game.

I'm not saying I don't understand where the idea came from or what it's trying to represent, I just don't like what it takes to employ it.

nijineko
10-16-2008, 05:41 PM
a point. good point. that is why the grapple and trip rules are among the most commonly houseruled in the game. ^^

tesral
10-16-2008, 05:54 PM
This issue just harps on one of the reasons I dislike the AoO system...over-complication of a process (combat) that is already the most detailed and complex part of the game.

I'm not saying I don't understand where the idea came from or what it's trying to represent, I just don't like what it takes to employ it.

Ditto, and it is wedged to hit some classes more than others. Too complex. I would use a simpler version without some may circumstances that provoke.

ignimbrite
10-17-2008, 11:13 AM
a point. good point. that is why the grapple and trip rules are among the most commonly houseruled in the game. ^^

as a DM I cringe whenever I make the mistake of using a monster that likes to grapple or when a player decides to grapple a villain to subdue them for questioning.

Jcosby
10-17-2008, 04:33 PM
as a DM I cringe whenever I make the mistake of using a monster that likes to grapple or when a player decides to grapple a villain to subdue them for questioning.

Yes, I agree and that's why I really like the new Combat Manuver Rules in their Pathfinder rule set. Very streamlined and useable.

JC