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Steventylerbray
10-07-2008, 10:48 PM
ok, so im a lvl6 goblin rogue and i SUCK! my damage rolls (+1 comp s-bow) without sneak attack is 1d4+2, though i do have the rapid shot feat so i can make a max of 2d4+2.

usually i dont get a lot of chances to sneak atack and when i do it just adds 3d6

my bow sucks and i understand that, my dm has asured me that there will be "something special" for me in a dragons horde the next time we play.

i have Extremely good skills and i love my character and i dont want to make a new one, but can you guys suggest anything to make me valuable in a combat situation?

i do want to focus on ranged combat

thank you in advance

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-08-2008, 12:26 AM
I say "who cares." If you like the character, then no worries. Enjoy playing him or her and in time, youll find your character's strengths. Enjoy!

MuslixtheMighty
10-08-2008, 10:02 AM
I am with Thoth on this one. If you wanted to make a range badass, you should of gone with Ranger or a Fighter with Range specialties. You are the Rogue, tyrant of traps and sultan of skills.

Webhead
10-08-2008, 10:39 AM
Feat selection and magic items sound like they would be the key to beefing you up if you are looking for better ranged combat ability. Also, if you have a spell caster in the group who can give you buffs, like Flame Weapon (or whatever it's called) or Bull's Strength if you have a composite bow.

As the others said though, unless your game is a total hack-fest, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just make your character they way you want to and don't fret if you don't get to maximize your damage potential.

Zeneak
10-08-2008, 10:43 AM
As for suggestion, Specialize! if your bow is too puny, when you get the chance have a mage enchant it with a bane. +2 attack against a specific creature and +2d6 against that type as well. finding a creature that your character Hates with a passion even as a rogue is both good RP and a good reason to start thinking "hmmm, what is the best way to kill these ****ers." also as it comes about for the sneak attacking, try working with your DM more directly, out of game time, because there should be plenty of instances where your character can get concealment and make a hide check, from there it is some careful manuvering to get a sneak attack. so when a fight breaks out ask your GM what kind of terrain is around, usually rooms aren't 'really' just big open spaces, they have purpose and thus they should have things about that a rogue that is shifty enough can hide behind, GMs just some times forget about that little piece and make a giant room. just remember though that some rooms really are just open spaces. which your character isn't really designed for in the first place, if your party doesn't have much heavy range then working with them on bottle necking opponants into places that you can be hiding in wait is also a good way to get sneak attacks off. also i would invest in some bluff.. and use Fiegn Frequently, it denies dex bonus to armor for your next attack, meaning even if you are standing infront of it's face you can get a sneak attack.

Inquisitor Tremayne
10-08-2008, 11:23 AM
Being small you aren't going to be able to do a lot of damage from your small size weapons, so I suggest focusing on hitting, and hitting a lot.

I would avoid feats that are going to decrease your attack bonus unless you have a super high dex, 18+. This way, while you may not be doing a lot of damage every round, at least you are hitting and dealing at the very least 3 points of damage EVERY ROUND! Nothing is worse than being the big dumb fighter in the group and you can't hit crap with your super greatsword of awesomeness +2, so focus on hitting.

Also, maneuvering into position to gain sneak attack is also a great suggestion. You can also take feats that allow you to feint as a free action or move action or some such that way you can make your opponent flat footed.

You might want to scour the Complete Scoundrel, Complete Adventurer, and the Players Handbook II for more feats.

Feats out of the PHB off the top of my head; Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus, Far Shot, Skill Focus (bluff), Skill Focus (Move Silently).

Feats out of the PHB if you have a Dex of 18+ the ones above plus; Rapid Shot.

I have played 2 ranged focused characters, I will post more later.

ignimbrite
10-08-2008, 11:41 AM
you've been given some great advice already. I'd also add 'just give it time'.

Invisibility and Improved Invisibility are your ranged friends, get them cast on you frequently. Look for ways to catch your opponents flat-footed. Being first in the initiative order is great. Blindness, invisibility, grappled, there are a bunch of conditions that grant sneak attack oppurtunities.

And finally put it in perspective a human fighter with a greatsword is probably only doing 2d6+3. With the BAB that is once, and maybe twice a round. Your 2d4+4 plus 3d6 (~19) every two rounds (if you are hiding) is not massively lower than 6d6+9 (~30). Don't forget you are a specialist damage dealer with mad skills, not a general damage dealer with no skills.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-08-2008, 12:09 PM
I say "who cares." If you like the character, then no worries. Enjoy playing him or her and in time, youll find your character's strengths. Enjoy!
Addendum: I like "suck" characters. Probably since i started playing DnD in the 1970's. You know the time, when your best stat was a 15... if youre lucky. When you have the worst character in a party, you get clever and find ways to be creative and alter circumstances, thereby making yourself more useful to the pary and/or yourself. This, in and of itself, not only lends to a better use of imagination, character enjoyment, more enjoyable gameplay, and a stronger emotional connection to said character. These were the characters i miss the most, like Dirk the Daring, mentioned earlier. This is why many gamers best memories are of earlier editions, back in a time when campaigns took years and so did the leveling. It's about character development, not kill ratio. Now-a-days, if a character dies, the attitude is: oh well, make another. Where's the fun in that? My two coppers.

Zeneak
10-08-2008, 12:27 PM
Honestly i agree with thoth just because your character isn't an all around amazing character doesn't mean he can't be amazing. if you just specialize, i made a rogue with 14 12 10 10 10 8 before. he was amazing, you just have to dedicate yourself to a specialization, he was a talker, diplomacy was his best skill, so with a +1 charisma 4 ranks in diplomacy and skill focus, negotiator he is an average joe with +10 at lvl one in diplomacy. best advice i have is to rely on your teamates, and be good at one thing, be Very good at one thing.. there is a reason you are in a party other then to have more raw hit points after all.

Bearfoot_Adam
10-08-2008, 12:35 PM
You're a goblin bowmen. I say Poison! Poison! Poison!

Zeneak
10-08-2008, 12:38 PM
AGREED! poison would be beneficial. just don't forget antitoxin. there is a chance to make a mistake when you are preparing your weapons. my best suggestion for the character is to find a way to always have precognition, when goblins are suprised they usually get decimated. as a standard thing, but if they are the ones raiding, they are fairly nasty. keeping true to the name if you always have preparation and choose your fights, i am sure you could be a devastating character

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-08-2008, 12:43 PM
Honestly i agree with thoth just because your character isn't an all around amazing character doesn't mean he can't be amazing. if you just specialize, i made a rogue with 14 12 10 10 10 8 before. he was amazing, you just have to dedicate yourself to a specialization, he was a talker, diplomacy was his best skill, so with a +1 charisma 4 ranks in diplomacy and skill focus, negotiator he is an average joe with +10 at lvl one in diplomacy. best advice i have is to rely on your teamates, and be good at one thing, be Very good at one thing.. there is a reason you are in a party other then to have more raw hit points after all.
Exactly! Zeneak makes a very wise point: specialize in one thing and be the best you can be at it. If you do this you will experience a level of fun not imagined.

tesral
10-08-2008, 12:47 PM
"Suck" is a matter of opinion. Without seeing more of the game it is difficult to juidge just what "sucks" about the character.

However the above advice has some good points. Rouges are not the melee monsters of the game. Play to the strengths of the class and accept your supporting roles in melee.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-08-2008, 01:05 PM
"Suck" is a matter of opinion. Without seeing more of the game it is difficult to juidge just what "sucks" about the character.

However the above advice has some good points. Rouges are not the melee monsters of the game. Play to the strengths of the class and accept your supporting roles in melee.
tesral, "suck" was defined by the thread-starter.

Webhead
10-08-2008, 01:16 PM
Exactly! Zeneak makes a very wise point: specialize in one thing and be the best you can be at it. If you do this you will experience a level of fun not imagined.

Be specialized but also have some diversity and not be a "one-trick pony". I've seen one or two of those kinds of characters crop up in our D&D campaigns. We had a character who solely focused on "bow mastery" and took everything he could think of to make him a better archer. He failed to realize that a single 3rd level Wizard spell - Wind Wall - would completely negate his character. As he poured everything into his archery, without it, he was useless. It's sad when a 20th level character can be countered by a 3rd level spell.

Zeneak
10-08-2008, 01:24 PM
Be specialized but also have some diversity and not be a "one-trick pony". I've seen one or two of those kinds of characters crop up in our D&D campaigns. We had a character who solely focused on "bow mastery" and took everything he could think of to make him a better archer. He failed to realize that a single 3rd level Wizard spell - Wind Wall - would completely negate his character. As he poured everything into his archery, without it, he was useless. It's sad when a 20th level character can be countered by a 3rd level spell.

That is true, i forgot to mention that he was proficient at other things as well, but he was just exceptional with diplomacy, web head is correct. but having that slight fault means that when that spell was introduced we have nessesity is the mother of invention. not everyone is going to be walkin around with wind wall, and for those that do. well we return to precognition.. something that is harder for 'good' characters, but hey alignment is a joke anyways.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-08-2008, 01:25 PM
Be specialized but also have some diversity and not be a "one-trick pony". I've seen one or two of those kinds of characters crop up in our D&D campaigns. We had a character who solely focused on "bow mastery" and took everything he could think of to make him a better archer. He failed to realize that a single 3rd level Wizard spell - Wind Wall - would completely negate his character. As he poured everything into his archery, without it, he was useless. It's sad when a 20th level character can be countered by a 3rd level spell.
Very true and very wise, Webhead.

Steventylerbray, just be careful not to take it so far as to become a jack-of-all-trades either. You must find the happy medium. So in conclusion, specialize, definitely specialize, but not to the point of giving yourself a red blinking button of an achilles heal, for there is no honor by having your 20th level character countered by a 3rd level spell.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-08-2008, 01:33 PM
That is true, i forgot to mention that he was proficient at other things as well, but he was just exceptional with diplomacy, web head is correct. but having that slight fault means that when that spell was introduced we have nessesity is the mother of invention. not everyone is going to be walkin around with wind wall, and for those that do. well we return to precognition.. something that is harder for 'good' characters, but hey alignment is a joke anyways.
Very true...

Webhead
10-08-2008, 01:50 PM
Very true and very wise, Webhead.

Steventylerbray, just be careful not to take it so far as to become a jack-of-all-trades either. You must find the happy medium. So in conclusion, specialize, definitely specialize, but not to the point of giving yourself a red blinking button of an achilles heal, for there is no honor by having your 20th level character countered by a 3rd level spell.

Yes, the trick is to give yourself options. Specialize in Plan A, but if that fails, be sure to have a decent Plan B...and maybe even a Plan C, just in case all hell breaks loose.

As a result of this mentality, my Fighters tended to carry at least a half dozen different weapons. Yes, I could kick serious butt with a battleaxe, but what if my axe were destroyed/disarmed/magnetized/electrified/stolen? Oh, no problem, I've got a warhammer, two short swords, a couple throwing axes and a sling...you never know...

boulet
10-08-2008, 01:56 PM
Oh, no problem, I've got a warhammer, two short swords, a couple throwing axes and a sling...you never know...
Don't forget the lumbago !

Webhead
10-08-2008, 01:58 PM
Don't forget the lumbago !

...or the miniature giant space-hamster...

Steventylerbray
10-08-2008, 06:29 PM
wow, thank you all for your advice.

but there are a few things i still need to know.

is it worth attempting to feint with a charisma of 6 and no rank in bluff?


also i asked my DM about poisons and he said "you can go ahead and buy some, but all my monsters will make their checks"
and when i looked again, all the poisons in the DMG have kinda low dificulty class.
is it truly worth investing money into?

another thing. should i possibly take any multi-class in ranger?
i still want to specialize in ranged combat and i am going to try to have a good plan b

this is my first character and i love him, and if he died i certainly would not just say "oh well i will just make a new one"

he actually did die allready and was reincarnated as the goblin (he was half elf)

thank you all for your help

boulet
10-08-2008, 08:16 PM
he said "you can go ahead and buy some, but all my monsters will make their checks"
<sarcasm> that's a fantastic GM you got there </sarcasm>

Steventylerbray
10-08-2008, 11:40 PM
he is unexperienced as a DM

our group is the first time he DMed


but he really is a good guy

nijineko
10-09-2008, 12:03 AM
whomever thinks that a windwall can completely negate an archer is not thinking very cleverly. there are a number of ways around a windwall that an archer of any level can attempt.



about archery, it would be wise of you to look up such things as wind wall, and figure out ways around them ahead of time. may i also suggest that you find or make custom arrows. there are many variants from different sources: blunt arrows that do subdual damage, arrows that do slashing damage and are great for cutting ropes, arrows that produce audible signals-you are a rouge and that would be great for sneaking and scouting and signaling the party as to what you found, arrows that explode, arrows that catch on fire, arrows that create a sonic boom, arrows that tumble in mid air, arrows that fly further than normal, and so on. there are also magical ones. given that they are one-shot, most dm's don't mind handing them out as much.

Bearfoot_Adam
10-09-2008, 12:20 AM
is it worth attempting to feint with a charisma of 6 and no rank in bluff?


Well you are only looking at a -2 to rolls and the beauty of rogue is all those skill points. The beauty of D&D is the only limit to raising a skill is the maximum rank. So the next time you level boom 8 + int modifier points into bluff and you automatically know how to lie like a rug. Yeah poisons can be little light but one unit of poison can coat many arrowheads so just keep plugging him and they'll fail a roll eventually. That is if your gm doesn't cheese his rolls. Aside from that it is very in character for a sneaky little guy like your character to do.

Zeneak
10-09-2008, 01:16 AM
There is a nice book.. called the arms and equipment guide, if it is a straight 3.5 game it is a little out dated, 3.0 BUT! the poisons in it are negociable, the DMG for 3.5 i find is Very lacking, also.. there is some Nasty things in the book of vile darkness.. bad poisons.. and my favorite.. drugs.. the amount of shit you can put out with a drug that is injected or through injury.. an arrow can be made to do both. hallucinagenics and the like.. the save throw isn't to negate the effects, it is to keep from becoming addicted. Expensive stuff though, want to use it on things that are going to be worth a few hundred gold.. say.. like giving your rival a shot of a drug that cost 2000g.. for one use, that is applied by injury... arrow coated in it.. the DC save to not become addicted is in the 30s. so as niji said, some specialized arrows that have a wide utility, and some enginuity can go a long way.

Webhead
10-09-2008, 09:56 AM
whomever thinks that a windwall can completely negate an archer is not thinking very cleverly. there are a number of ways around a windwall that an archer of any level can attempt.



about archery, it would be wise of you to look up such things as wind wall, and figure out ways around them ahead of time. may i also suggest that you find or make custom arrows. there are many variants from different sources: blunt arrows that do subdual damage, arrows that do slashing damage and are great for cutting ropes, arrows that produce audible signals-you are a rouge and that would be great for sneaking and scouting and signaling the party as to what you found, arrows that explode, arrows that catch on fire, arrows that create a sonic boom, arrows that tumble in mid air, arrows that fly further than normal, and so on. there are also magical ones. given that they are one-shot, most dm's don't mind handing them out as much.

The problem was that the player had a very one-track mind. He wanted the greatest number of attacks with the greatest chance to hit for the most damage with his bow. Everything he took was about increasing his attack/damage output and ability to utilize his Sneak Attack damage dice. If it didn't do one of those things, it wasn't worth taking, to him. Hence, Wind Wall goes up, and suddenly anyone that it encircles is protected from anything his character could do, short of running up and attacking with his sword (which he wasn't so terribly good at, nor was the player willing to concede to such a course of action...he wanted to stay as far out of reach from the bad guys as possible).

That's not to say Wind Wall got used a lot (maybe twice in the campaign) or that one casting made him unable to participate. Generally there were hordes of enemies for us to fight and only a couple could be covered by a Wind Wall, but if the big bad villain threw up the spell, there was nothing the player could do against him until the Wind Wall was dispelled or the party figured out another way around it.

MuslixtheMighty
10-09-2008, 10:34 AM
About archery, it would be wise of you to look up such things as wind wall, and figure out ways around them ahead of time. may i also suggest that you find or make custom arrows. there are many variants from different sources: blunt arrows that do subdual damage, arrows that do slashing damage and are great for cutting ropes, arrows that produce audible signals-you are a rouge and that would be great for sneaking and scouting and signaling the party as to what you found, arrows that explode, arrows that catch on fire, arrows that create a sonic boom, arrows that tumble in mid air, arrows that fly further than normal, and so on. there are also magical ones. given that they are one-shot, most dm's don't mind handing them out as much.

In an old game of D&D 3rd Edition, I basiclly made a Half-Elf Fighter version of the Green Arrow. He had all of those arrows listed and any more. Man that character was fun!


There is a nice book.. called the arms and equipment guide, if it is a straight 3.5 game it is a little out dated, 3.0 BUT! the poisons in it are negociable, the DMG for 3.5 i find is Very lacking, also.. there is some Nasty things in the book of vile darkness.. bad poisons.. and my favorite.. drugs.. the amount of shit you can put out with a drug that is injected or through injury.. an arrow can be made to do both. hallucinagenics and the like.. the save throw isn't to negate the effects, it is to keep from becoming addicted. Expensive stuff though, want to use it on things that are going to be worth a few hundred gold.. say.. like giving your rival a shot of a drug that cost 2000g.. for one use, that is applied by injury... arrow coated in it.. the DC save to not become addicted is in the 30s. so as niji said, some specialized arrows that have a wide utility, and some enginuity can go a long way.

I can not remember what 3rd Edition book I saw this in but there was a way to adjust posions. Making them more or less detactable (Smell, color, etc.), changing the viscosity and most importantly increasing or decreasing the damage one takes and secondary attributes damage.

Bearfoot_Adam
10-09-2008, 11:23 AM
I've always thought the stat damage poisons caused was reasonable. I was always a little disappointed and the low save rolls needed.

DeathByDM
10-09-2008, 11:40 AM
I'd consider multiclassing to wizard or sorcerer (depending on whether you have higher int or cha) and doing something like arcane trickster. There are many wizard spells which could help you do more damage or get more sneaky. It's better to get those abilities yourself than to rely on party members to do it for you. At this point, your skills are probably solid enough that you can afford to take a bit of a hit there in order to improve your overall effectiveness.

Grumpy Old Man
10-09-2008, 02:42 PM
One of my all time favorite characters is a rogue who has zip for attack but is really good at hiding and when spotted is even better at ducking and dodging. A lover not a fighter is his motto. Since his learned skills are cooking and locksmithing his uses come in other areas rather than being the baddest man in the room. Work on his survival skills rather than fighting skills and play him as a rascal character. Back at the saloon he can tell his stories of how he slayed 2 dragons with his left hand and 3 with his right hand while kicking the Ogres butt with his big hairy foot. If nothing else you should get points for telling the best whoppers.

nijineko
10-09-2008, 08:11 PM
The problem was that the player had a very one-track mind.

...Generally there were hordes of enemies for us to fight and only a couple could be covered by a Wind Wall, but if the big bad villain threw up the spell, there was nothing the player could do against him until the Wind Wall was dispelled or the party figured out another way around it.

i think the first is actually a symptom of why wind wall would stop the player from figuring out a way around the issue, rather than an issue in character creation.

i say this because i have a character with a very long and intricate history and background; he is a blast to play, but is built along the same lines. due to backstory reasons, he is utterly focused on becoming the best archer, anywhere, ever. to this end, he wanders the lands studying a little here, a little there, constantly seeking, never quite finding what he is after.

[example of a common train of thought of his]
(he WILL prove them wrong! just because he can't learn the ways of a wizard and thus qualify for his childhood dream of being accepted into the ranks of the elite arcane archers is no excuse! he WILL become a better archer than any arcane elite who ever lived!)
[/example of a common train of thought of his]

one of his class features will defeat a wind wall every time, but only if specific conditions are met. if the battlefield situation is such that he can't use that ability, then he has to search for another way to defeat it. luckily for him, even if he were to use the simple expedient of crossing the wind wall, he can shoot at close range without provoking an AoO. and bonus for the rouge in the party, another ability of his allows him to flank and to threaten an area even while weilding a bow.

again, due to storyline reasons, he is about to experience an event, such a life-changing event, that will shake him to his core, and will cause him to lose his focus. i can say this because as a player, i have figured out that it is coming, due to in-story events... but the character only has the vaugest hints so far. and he's the silent type anyway, so he's mostly been pondering internally the ramifications and meaning of the confusing things he's caught the drift of so far.

it's going to be a blast to play out this life altering event, i have a hard time waiting til we can continue the campaign.



i won't hand out all the ways i've figured out around a wind wall, but here's a freebie: if you manage to figure out how to increase the size catagory of the archer by 2 or 3+ from medium, the bolts or arrows will be large enough to no longer be affected by the wind wall. ^^ hint: a ring of spell storing is handy here.

Webhead
10-09-2008, 10:47 PM
...i won't hand out all the ways i've figured out around a wind wall, but here's a freebie: if you manage to figure out how to increase the size catagory of the archer by 2 or 3+ from medium, the bolts or arrows will be large enough to no longer be affected by the wind wall. ^^ hint: a ring of spell storing is handy here.

Indeed. A Wind Wall isn't fool-proof, nor was I intending to suggest it was. It was just fool-proof against this player's character by the way he designed and played him. And it didn't really become a significant problem during the game as the GM only ever used it twice throughout an entire 20-level campaign, so it wasn't even something he worried about.

It was just an interesting observation that his character (who he was convinced was so utterly super cool bada$$) was so easily foiled by something so simple. Its the "all your eggs in one basket" concept. The rest of the PCs tended to be more diverse in that at least they could approach situations from a different angle if their favored tactic was ineffectual. He wasn't that creative or versatile.

nijineko
10-10-2008, 07:31 PM
interestingly enough, my character mentioned above ran into this exact issue just a while ago. we ran into a black pudding, and it simply split into more when he shot it with arrows. he didn't happen to have any of the flaming type left, so he was more or less helpless for that fight.

more or less helpless at 16th level.... ^^ or to be more precise, there was nothing effective that he could do. the only things he could do were to use aid another to boost someone elses attack score, provide a flanking bonus, or serve as scout / lookout so that the party wasn't ambushed by something else during the fight.

so he wasn't helpless, but he was absolutely a backseat character in that fight.

Steventylerbray
10-12-2008, 11:02 PM
HA, in the end it was all pointless

I died earlier today.

i rolled a new character, and i used a little of everyones advice

Thank you all for the advice, and i wish you all happy gaming

MuslixtheMighty
10-12-2008, 11:06 PM
With all of the advice given, what did you make?

nijineko
10-13-2008, 01:09 AM
yes, what non-sucky character did you construct?

Steventylerbray
10-13-2008, 04:48 PM
well i decided to not put all my eggs in one basket, and i went for a more melee friendly character, i multiclassed in rogue and ranger (3 lvls each) and took improved feint and weapon fenese. my sneak attacks arnt as powerful as before, but in melee combat, i pretty much get to use them every round. i have really low health, so i have to move in, atack, and then move right back out again, but thats how rogues should be played

i am satisfied with my new charicter, and its makeing the game ten times more fun now that do damage almost to par with my barbarian aly

but once again, thank you all for your help