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Genzodus Thoth
10-05-2008, 01:09 PM
As far as I know, there are no rules for doing so. Would you get the armor bonus for both, or not?

wizarddog
10-05-2008, 02:04 PM
No. Because bonus from the same source do not stack. Gaining the +1 shield bonus would not stack with another shield bonus.(Including from a shield spell).

nijineko
10-05-2008, 02:43 PM
it is interesting to note that while wizarddog is correct in that the shield bonuses (and enhancement bonuses attached) will not stack with each other, any other enhancements would. so, in other words any extra enhancements that do not affect the ac would apply. you could have a +5 shield with +5 worth of extra enhancements, and another +1 shield (the minimum required) with +9 worth of extra enhancements!

there are feats that allow one to use a shield as a weapon. there are even some shields with weapons built in. shield-axes and so forth. it is entirely possible to use one shield as a weapon, and one as a shield. if you were to use both as weapons, i do believe the feat (or weapon description) in question stipulates that when used as a weapon, you don't get the shield bonus to ac....

for an extreme example of the above shield/armor enhancements idea check out the following:

use padded, leather, or chain shirt armor.
use the chahar-aina and dastana pieces of armor from oriental adventures which have the special property of stacking with the three armors mentioned above.
use two shields.

enchant as follows:
base armor (say the chain shirt) up to +5, with +5 bonus enhancements.
either chahar-aina or dastana up to +5 with +5 bonus enhancements. (according to the item rules)
the other piece to +1, the minimum required, with +9 bonus enhancements. (according to the item rules)
first shield up to +5, with +5 bonus enhancements.
other shield at +1 with up to +9 bonus enhancements. depending on the exact weaponization of the second shield, you might also be able to enchant it with a +5 weapon bonus and +5 extra bonuses. i suggest thrown and returning at the very least.

this will total you at +15/+33 ac bonus/armor enhancements, with a possible +5/+5 weapon. now i imagine that not many pcs will be able to amass the gold necessary to pay for all that, cool as it sounds... but if anyone is having trouble challenging some high level pcs, here's one way to go. oh, and make sure that they can self-immolate, so that they take some of these items with them, allowing you to control how much treasure falls into the pcs hands. =D


note: these numbers do not include the base ac bonus of the armor or shield pieces themselves.

Genzodus Thoth
10-05-2008, 05:46 PM
...that's completely amazing. Also, I already knew about the bonus redundancy rules, but I asked the question because in a realistic situation, using two shields isn't redundant, just like using two weapons, and I was wondering if there might be an armor equivalent to a rend attack. Maybe something like Samus' morph ball...

nijineko
10-05-2008, 10:37 PM
hmmmm... the only rend attack that comes to mind is a feat, and that's an epic feat to boot. there are class features and maybe a spell or power that grants a rend ability.

perhaps a grappling specialist with armor spikes? one could always research a custom spell or power that produces this effect, too. note that armor spikes can be enhanced as a weapon. ^^

Jcosby
10-06-2008, 05:40 PM
As far as I know, there are no rules for doing so. Would you get the armor bonus for both, or not?

Without looking up the ruling I'm not sure you can use a shield in both hands although I'm not really sure why you couldn't.

The problem is why would you want too? If you attack with one of the shields you can't use the armor bonus for that shield for that round and you can't stack two "Shield" bonuses for the AC.

Unless you had some feat that you could take to allow you to attack with a shield and gain the AC for it still, and some how stack the AC from both shields. Again with feats I think this could be interesting.

Special feat for attacking with shield and keeping the AC, another feat for gaining the AC bonus from both shields, and then another feat to allow you to gain extra AC if your in "Full Defense" with both shields.

Just because there isn't a book that has a feat published doesn't mean you and your GM can't come up with something so long as you both feel it's balanced for your game. I personally think it's a pretty neat idea.

JC

Zeneak
10-06-2008, 06:04 PM
If we are talking about straight shield use, what you can do, is attack using shield bash with one shield, and still have the AC bonus for the other shield, since they don't stack without going to extreme lengths. So spiked shields with magic pumped into them, even at low levels you may not get the AC bonus for the second shield but it would still be a shield bashing good time.

nijineko
10-06-2008, 06:11 PM
it certainly makes for a great visual! although i'm sorta seeing an armored short captain america with two shields in my head. ^^ especially if you can throw them for damage and have them return!

Zeneak
10-06-2008, 06:20 PM
hahaha that is what i saw you going for with the throwing and returning on the shield. hahaha a dwarven defender made into captain America

cplmac
10-06-2008, 06:44 PM
I know about the not being to count both shields at the same time for armor class, but I see no reason why a shield can't be held in each hand. Of course, you can only bash an opponent with a shield, but in a pinch, sometimes you have to improvise with what is immediately available. Sort of like using a club as a weapon, only in this case it is usually made out of metal so there is probably the need to give a little bit of bonus for the difference between a wood club and a metal shield. I know what I would use in the games that I run, but I will refrain from giving an exact amount for the bonus and leave that decission up to each individual DM/GM.

nijineko
10-06-2008, 06:54 PM
there are specialized shield/weapons, typically of dwarven make, and also exotic weapons... but there are options. i suppose one could enchant it with the enhancement that grants proficiency with the weapon if one has the spare gold for it.

Webhead
10-06-2008, 06:56 PM
While he didn't actually wield 2 shields, I did play a "Captain America" character in the last major D&D campaign we played. There are a surprising number of feats, spells and other options for making a "shield fighter" a viable character (yes, he could actually throw the shield ;)).

I had a little help from my DM who allowed me to use the "Martial Arts" feats from the Revised Star Wars d20 book. They worked quite well and weren't imbalanced.

Aidan
10-06-2008, 08:07 PM
You know, while the rules might make wielding two shields viable and even advantageous, this fails to pass the sniff test for me. It's more about manipulating the rules than making a real character.

Zeneak
10-08-2008, 11:03 AM
making a character that uses two shields can easily pass a 'sniff test' if you are talking about why the character would do such a thing. one which way is perhaps an exalted character who believes deeply in mercy. opting for a defense instead of an offense. rather trying to make a villain repent instead of outright killing them.

Farcaster
10-08-2008, 05:58 PM
I guess someone is just going to have to strap two shields on, head out to an Amtgard event and then let us know how effective it is. For true measure, a test should be tried with different combinations of shield types and sizes, like a buckler and a heavy round shield.

Without such empirical evidence that two shields could be effectively used in a combat situation, I'd probably apply a penalty to the shield bonus of -2, say, for being cumbersome. And, of course, I'd still only allow the shield bonus of one of the shields to be counted (with the penalty). I'd probably also apply that penalty to any shield bashes.

That's my first take on it anyway.

Webhead
10-08-2008, 10:35 PM
Yes, a dual-shield wielder isn't a very "realistic" concept as it has all the aspects of fighting unarmed with additional disadvantages (encumbrance, greatly limited flexibility, speed and effective striking angles), but then, when has D&D ever been realistic? ;)

Whatever gets you your jollies, I say. I would try the concept simply out of curiousity. I don't see it becoming a long-term concept, but something worth a few grins (and twitches from the DM). :thumb:

nijineko
10-08-2008, 11:56 PM
You know, while the rules might make wielding two shields viable and even advantageous, this fails to pass the sniff test for me. It's more about manipulating the rules than making a real character.

there is nothing wrong with using the rules to make a concept. the fact that a character has an unusual take on a given rule does not somehow automatically make it "not a real character". in fact, it tends to produce more "real" characters than not. a player is taken with a concept and thinks it might be cool, so they will actually work harder on coming up with explanations (as in, backstory) than otherwise.

while the rules make it viable... but they do not make it advantageous. you have to spend a large number of feats just to make it break even. which is a pretty deep cost. and proof of investment by the player.


I guess someone is just going to have to strap two shields on, head out to an Amtgard event and then let us know how effective it is. For true measure, a test should be tried with different combinations of shield types and sizes, like a buckler and a heavy round shield.

Without such empirical evidence that two shields could be effectively used in a combat situation, I'd probably apply a penalty to the shield bonus of -2, say, for being cumbersome. And, of course, I'd still only allow the shield bonus of one of the shields to be counted (with the penalty). I'd probably also apply that penalty to any shield bashes.

That's my first take on it anyway.

there are already built in penalties for wielding shields in this fashion. a large number of feats have to be taken just to remove those penalties and simply break even. which in and of itself is a penalty. ^^


Yes, a dual-shield wielder isn't a very "realistic" concept as it has all the aspects of fighting unarmed with additional disadvantages (encumbrance, greatly limited flexibility, speed and effective striking angles), but then, when has D&D ever been realistic? ;)

Whatever gets you your jollies, I say. I would try the concept simply out of curiousity. I don't see it becoming a long-term concept, but something worth a few grins (and twitches from the DM). :thumb:

wonder woman was a dual shield wielder. she wore hers on her wrists. admittedly, this is somewhat more "plausible" in a supers setting... but it would still work in high fantasy. it would really fit with the stereotype of the dwarf. even though a class does not exist for this particular concept i would happily work with a player to create a balanced custom prestige class, so that they could enjoy playing the game by trying out what they think is a cool idea.

who knows, in the process, they may decide that this idea is great, or they think it's not really working out and may move on. either way, the rule of yes removes any problems with this concept. =D

Thriondel Half-Elven
10-09-2008, 06:38 PM
Sure why can't you wield two shields? Like someone said you can shield bash like crazy.

Or you could wear two bucklers (which frees both hands, right?) and then dual wield two swords too. ???

nijineko
10-09-2008, 06:47 PM
yup, perfectly viable, if with a hefty cumulative penalty for attacking with each arm that has a buckler on it.

Thriondel Half-Elven
10-09-2008, 06:49 PM
yup, perfectly viable, if with a hefty cumulative penalty for attacking with each arm that has a buckler on it.

So when someone swings a sword at you, you block it with your left buckler and instantly slash at them with the sword in your left hand and so on and so forth.

Just rambling

nijineko
10-09-2008, 08:18 PM
it would work. just with the cumulative penalties. =D but it sure sounds cool in a story desc, and that counts for a lot in roleplaying!