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View Full Version : Duengon & Dragon Magazines -- Will you pay?



Grimwell
10-03-2008, 05:20 PM
This month marks the beginning of the pay services for Dungeon and Dragon magazines. Up until now, Wizards free trial period has allowed everyone to read them -- but now it's time to pay up to get the goods and subscribe to the D&D Insider (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insidernews/20081001a).

I've created this poll to query folks who are playing 4th Edition (DM's and players alike) to see how the PnPG community falls, in terms of paying for the online subscriptions. I am setting up options for folks who are, and aren't into 4th edition, as some folks will pick it up even if they are sticking with a prior edition.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the conversion numbers stack up. Please include your comments in this thread to note why you are picking up the digital subscription, or why not.

If you aren't a fan of 4th edition, and you aren't picking up a subscription, please avoid replies that turn this into another edition wars thread. I'd like to avoid that.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-03-2008, 05:32 PM
I like 4.0 and play it often, but i will not be subscribing. Why? I have no need to. To me anyway, its an unnecessary drain on my finances that can be better spent elsewhere.

Good poll, btw. :spider:

Christopher_rowe
10-03-2008, 06:56 PM
I'm planning to subscribe, mostly because I'm a big fan of the Forgotten Realms and as far as I can tell, that's gonna be the source for gaming information on the Realms for the time being.

mrken
10-03-2008, 07:16 PM
Up until they went digital I would pick up copies of both magazines from time to time, depending the articles they printed. Guess I am just too old fashioned. I like the hard copies, and though they take up space I can and will always have them to reference, unlike the digital copies I would have to pay for but not have. Too many times I have bought stuff via download and when I have a malfunction, (yes they do happen) I have lost the software and was unable to reinstall because the "key" was lost when I had my problem. Company says since you can't "prove" you paid for the item you may now buy it again. :) Have a good day. lol Yeah, I get a hard copy of everything and file it away, just for the day.

Kalanth
10-04-2008, 11:17 AM
I plan on paying for the subscription as long as they make good on the promise to release the Character Visualizer and other tools. If they delay that to far out then I will cut the subscription and walk away only a few dollars in the hole.

wizarddog
10-04-2008, 12:40 PM
No.

I haven't like the resources they offer so far in articles and adventures. At least with a printed version I could thumb through the mag and decide if it had anything I really wanted.

I am also a little impatient on those other services they promised and have yet to implement (Like virtual game table.) In may opinion they should offer them for free but that 's not how Wizard$ and Ha$bro work. ;)

Grimwell
10-04-2008, 03:13 PM
At this point I'm not picking up a subscription either. I've never subscribed to the paper magazines, though I have purchased far too many of them over the years, and the electronic tools aren't enough for me (yet).

When the online table comes out I'll consider it for that reason alone, but right now it's not enough to compel me to make it a part of my budget.

Stormhound
10-04-2008, 03:24 PM
I like 4e okay, but given the (apparent) improbability of being able to run a campaign locally, I haven't any particular reason to pay for more of what I'm not going to use.

I'll admit that I was also a bit worried about having to remind people that just because something published in Dragon or Dungeon was "official as per WotC", did not mean that it was official at my table, but that wouldn't have kept my from subbing if I was going to be using at least some of the material.

Dragon2605
10-04-2008, 05:09 PM
Money, or rather the lack of, is the main reason I'm not getting the subscription. Also I am not planning on converting to 4th edition anytime soon. The money situation has put me in a real bind. :(

Mead
10-04-2008, 09:02 PM
No, I won't. They have failed my confidence test on being able to hit deadlines for the magazine content. They've even effectively admitted they won't have fallback or backup material to keep their deadlines.

No deal.

Tamerath
10-05-2008, 11:26 AM
I really like what Wizards have done with 4th...and I have made ample use out of their free period...I'll definately be switching over within the first two months.

Inquisitor Tremayne
10-05-2008, 07:01 PM
I am not sure yet, if everything else, such as the character vis etc... gets up and running as well, then perhaps.

I am still waiting to see.

Valdar
10-06-2008, 12:25 AM
I'd prefer a print magazine, but I guess PDFs will have to do. At least with an online magazine there will be opportunities for errata...

DeathByDM
10-06-2008, 06:53 AM
Until I hear some positive reviews on the gametable and the character creators, probably not. I'd rather spend that money on something like Gamefly.

Skunkape
10-06-2008, 07:48 AM
The reason I'm not sure doesn't have anything to do about my like/dislike of 4th edition, I prefer print over PDF and really don't like the idea of having to spend money to get the PDF, then spend even more money to print it out to read it in my preferred format.

Guess I'm just outdated in that respect.

Kalanth
10-06-2008, 08:09 AM
I'd prefer a print magazine, but I guess PDFs will have to do. At least with an online magazine there will be opportunities for errata...

I completely agree that these things would be more appealing in print, but at the same time I am glad to eliminate the clutter in the house. Just wish I had a better way to read the magazines while on the pot...

Jcosby
10-06-2008, 12:43 PM
Well, since I have no current plans to play 4th edition I don't see how DDI would be of any use to me. Now, if they put out quality FR material I might get it for that, since I plan on converting all new FR material to 3.75.

JC

Chi
10-06-2008, 02:07 PM
I like 4.0 but we don't have the money for it., even if we did it would just be one more thing piling up in our house.

Webhead
10-06-2008, 02:29 PM
I like 4.0 but we don't have the money for it., even if we did it would just be one more thing piling up in our house.

...well, it's digital so it wouldn't *literally* pile up in your house, but I get your point... ;)

I'm on the "don't really plan to play 4e in the near future and don't feel like having nor can I afford another monthly subscription" train.

1958Fury
10-06-2008, 06:44 PM
Well, I don't like 4e as much as 3.5, but I reckon I'll get used to it. (As will most of the naysayers eventually, I'd imagine.)

I don't care about the issues of Dragon/Dungeon/etc. To me, a magazine is something you can read while sitting on the pot. But letting you play over the internet, I might like. Granted, there's already programs that let you do this, but this one should be better. And if it has a system of helping me find a group, so much the better.`

It really depends on how full-featured the program is. If it fully takes care of all the combat rules, keeps track of my stats, etc, then I'm totally there. I've always preferred playing Monopoly on the computer, just because it's easier to keep track of everything. D&D, being slightly more complicated than Monopoly, is a natural for the format. Heck, that's one of the reasons I've always favored computer RPGs over PnP.

Then again, there is a point where you wonder - if you're going to computerize the experience so much, why not just play an MMO?

It also depends on the price. Have they said what the monthly rate will be?

Grimwell
10-06-2008, 07:59 PM
Most MMO's are not turn based games, and none of them use 4.0 rules.

That's why I'd like a digital table, as well as my MMO fun!

1958Fury
10-06-2008, 09:07 PM
Most MMO's are not turn based games, and none of them use 4.0 rules.

That's why I'd like a digital table, as well as my MMO fun!

True, very true. However, the, um, privilege of using the 4.0 ruleset is not quite enough of a draw for me. If they made it compatible with several different rulesets, I'd be happier.

But overall, I'd really rather they just released the software, costing money up front, but with no monthly fee. I realize the monthly fee covers playing it over their server, but they could always release a version that lets you direct connect to your friends' computers, without using their server.

I don't know, I just really can't get into monthly fees. I like buying things, and owning them.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-06-2008, 09:33 PM
With 4th edition, i have decided not to collect any more DnD stuff. Sure, i'll get the PHB and possible the DMG, but i am through with the collecting of DnD stuff. Wont my wallet be happy.

Skunkape
10-07-2008, 07:22 AM
But overall, I'd really rather they just released the software, costing money up front, but with no monthly fee. I realize the monthly fee covers playing it over their server, but they could always release a version that lets you direct connect to your friends' computers, without using their server.

I don't know, I just really can't get into monthly fees. I like buying things, and owning them.

I don't mind the monthly fees, what I would prefer they do is to either charge you for the software, with no monthly fee or and this would probably work better, give you the software, but you have to pay a monthly fee. My big beef about doing both is I buy the software, but say in a month more or less, I find out I don't like it, not only have I invested money in the software, but I've also paid a monthly fee for x number of months, and if I quit paying the monthly fee, the software is now worthless to me.

Not saying I haven't done it, I've followed the MMO route, I just wish they'd give the software away, and charge the monthly fee. Heck, I'd eve pay a little more in the way of a monthly fee if the client software was free!

Grimwell
10-07-2008, 09:15 AM
Typically, in the MMO space at least, when you buy the software you get a month of play as well as the software. That way you aren't being hit twice before you try it. The hope of the publisher is that you enjoy that first month so much you are willing to subscribe for a second, and more.

Grimwell
10-07-2008, 09:20 AM
Fury's comments about pay once and peer to peer have piqued my interest about features. I've created a separate thread in the general forum (http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=49539) to discuss that tangent!

Valdar
10-07-2008, 10:23 AM
It never even occurred to me that they'd charge a monthly fee AND ding you for the client. There's already a Game Table button up on D&DI; that says to me that it will be where you download the client, and you can already access that page.

I'm not sure though- anything could change at this point. I'd like to check out game table to see how it does, but I'm pretty much booked with my one weekly game, so I wouldn't be using it much really- so, if GameTable were a separate charge for the client, I probably wouldn't get it until after my current game wraps up.

MortonStromgal
10-07-2008, 10:36 AM
Depends on price and if I can get "back issues" I'm not running D&D right now so I dont have the urge to buy resources for it. If I were to run some D&D I would consider it depending on the pricing vs amount of good materials.

tesral
10-08-2008, 12:36 AM
I like 4e okay, but given the (apparent) improbability of being able to run a campaign locally, I haven't any particular reason to pay for more of what I'm not going to use..

I here you there. Might be the greatest thing since sliced microchips, but if you have no use for it....

I stopped buying Dragon years ago. When it got less and less useful to my game and the design team thought they were doing a web page, readability dropped like a rock.

I've gotten used to not having it. I have no plans to do anything Forry related. As the above, absolutely no use for the thing, possible quality aside.

doink1212
10-10-2008, 07:49 AM
I'm planning on grabbing a subscription to the magazine, the online releases thus far have been very high quality. Im not sure about the actual online dungeon game. The dungeon builder is going to be freeware, and don't think the I will be interested in a game that I
1. will have to pay for
2. cannot get the full functioning out of
3. probably won't work for a while because I run linux
4. don't have the time to play online because I'm to busy going to school and running table games.

clint
10-10-2008, 12:29 PM
I'm saying no, but I probably will.

I enjoy the articles, though I'm not sure how enjoyable they'll be once I'm paying for them. But, I guess I'm willing to find out.

Engar
10-10-2008, 12:43 PM
Since I aspire to run a 2e modified game again soon I am pulling out all my old Dragon Mags and my CD-ROM version with updates. I have no use for 4e anything. I tried it and dislike it.

frank634
10-10-2008, 08:55 PM
Well, I will say this much. After attending Gencon and seeing the the character generator and other features of the insider, it is almost worth the pay per month. With the addition of both Dungeon and Dragon magazines, i feel it is well worth it.

I have been using the free trial of the magazines and found them very helpfull especially with 4th edition. I also like the electronic version more then I thought. I too am old fassioned when it comes to magazines, but for dungeons and dragons, it works very well. Hope to see more features soon.

eirip
10-19-2008, 12:24 AM
No, I will not be subscribing to the dnd insider. Since 4th came out I have gone over to paizo and I have subscribed to the pathfinder adventure path as well as switched over to the PFRPG. The only thing I would be interested in looking at would be the character visualizer and online tools but the last I looked they do not even have that running yet.

agoraderek
10-20-2008, 04:01 AM
if the mags were hardcopy, i'd pay for them (i don't really like reading pdfs, kinda gives me a headache after a bit...), even though i don't play 4e, ideas are ideas wherever they come from, but, as i'm going the pathfinder route, DDI won't do much for me.

Kalanth
10-20-2008, 02:02 PM
if the mags were hardcopy, i'd pay for them (i don't really like reading pdfs, kinda gives me a headache after a bit...), even though i don't play 4e, ideas are ideas wherever they come from, but, as i'm going the pathfinder route, DDI won't do much for me.


Yeah, that is my biggest problem. I don't like reading these things in .pdf format at all. I like the information they present, and for me it can be useful since I run 4e, but a much easier way to bring it to the table would be appreciated (since we don't allow laptops at the game table).

frank634
10-20-2008, 06:29 PM
if the mags were hardcopy, i'd pay for them (i don't really like reading pdfs, kinda gives me a headache after a bit...), even though i don't play 4e, ideas are ideas wherever they come from, but, as i'm going the pathfinder route, DDI won't do much for me.


Do what I do, print only what you need. That is the nice thing of PDF's.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-20-2008, 08:22 PM
Ive been known to purchase the hard copy's, but no way will i pay the price their offering for digital copy's.

ShadowZephyr
10-21-2008, 12:12 AM
I honestly think that WOTC is just doing what they are good at, and that is making alot of money really fast. Or at least trying . They did the same thing with Magic, Jyhad,Werewolf ,or better known as"Rage". and a few other card games .TSR did the same thing , they just did not do it as often and they did not completely change things every time. As far as it goes Iam stopping with 3.5 I have been through enough changes since D&D Second edition. I am tired of spending the money.

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-21-2008, 01:10 AM
I'll play the other editions, that's fine, but i am going back to 1st edition, for the classes and races are well defined. Magic Users getting 1 spell early on through an adventure, no worries, we houseruled that out in the 1970's. Our houserule is oddly similar to 4.0 when it comes to spells. Besides, the classics, as far as i'm concerned, were 1.0. There are others, ...sure, if i want to play them, then i will just backward engineer them.

Grimwell
10-21-2008, 09:15 AM
Thoth, does this mean you are putting your 4th edition game out to pasture?

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-21-2008, 10:31 AM
Thoth, does this mean you are putting your 4th edition game out to pasture?
Not at all, both of the 4th edition games are going strong, and I will continue to play said edition. I'll even pick up copy's of modules that stand out amongst the rest(i can always convert if need be). I just will no longer be a collector of any editions like i was with 3.5.

Grimwell
10-21-2008, 03:22 PM
Ahhh, gotcha. You don't have to have everything even if you play. I'm about the same. ;)

frank634
10-24-2008, 02:53 PM
I honestly think that WOTC is just doing what they are good at, and that is making alot of money really fast. Or at least trying . They did the same thing with Magic, Jyhad,Werewolf ,or better known as"Rage". and a few other card games .TSR did the same thing , they just did not do it as often and they did not completely change things every time. As far as it goes Iam stopping with 3.5 I have been through enough changes since D&D Second edition. I am tired of spending the money.

Well, first WOTC is a company and its job is to make money quickly.

I do agree that They (and other manufacturers) give us some pretty poor products at times, but honestly, the move to go to a digital format for their magazines (and other features) was not only an excellent move but cost about the same when it was in print.

At least I don't have boxes of their magazines to put in the attic any more. And I don't have to search loads of magazines to try to find the artical I am looking for. I can simply do an electronic search for the artical and find it in seconds.

No more taking entire magazines to game sessions when all I have to do is print exactly what I want. Hell, some times, since I take my computer to game sessions, I don't even need to print.

With all the technology we have available for the hobby, and the technology we are using (this site is a great example), going to a digital format makes perfect sense to me. I am glad to pay them for it. There articals are very good (in fact i feel they are better then they were when they were printed) and with 4e, they are very very vaulable.

I do miss the great pictures they had on the front of the magazine though. (Ah, the ranger woman on dragon 94. my dream girl);)

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-25-2008, 09:59 AM
Ahhh, gotcha. You don't have to have everything even if you play. I'm about the same. ;)
I'd love to get involved with your game, grimwell, and vise versa. If i wasnt moving in the within the next few months, i would endeavor to get involved asap. Sounds to me, from what i have read, your game/s would be great fun to play. I'd also love to run you through a WFRP game, but again, i'm moving soon.

With 3.5, i was one of those players that paid over a $1000.00 in items. No more, i say. With 4th edition, i am no longer a collector... okay, i'll be picking up all the 1st edition/hackmaster type stuff. With this said, i will still play dnd, no matter what the edition.

With the Dragon Mags, i'd pick them up from time to time if they were of hard-copy format. As it is, i wont be collecting the pdfs for pretty much the same reason i wont be collecting 4.0: i dont need everything 4.0 released to play... i only really need the phb.

I'll admit, i dont care for the direction in which dnd is going, but i am also wise enough to realize that my opinion is *not* the opinion of the masses.

Engar
10-25-2008, 04:41 PM
A company's responsibility is to provide a useful and quality product or service. Making money as the highest priority or even the only priority is reserved for the illegitimate. This is the stuff of pyramid schemes and get rich quick gimmicks.

"The bottom line" is served by the value provided above all else. It is perfectly legitimate to criticize a corporation for shortsighted actions spurred by greed at the cost of loyalty. I make no claim either way as to WotC's intentions, only that fervent opinions are often voiced by loyal patrons. Passersby do not care enough to take time out and share opinions either way.

Mindbomb
10-25-2008, 05:47 PM
Very well said, and I agree.

frank634
10-25-2008, 06:26 PM
A company's responsibility is to provide a useful and quality product or service. Making money as the highest priority or even the only priority is reserved for the illegitimate. This is the stuff of pyramid schemes and get rich quick gimmicks.

"The bottom line" is served by the value provided above all else. It is perfectly legitimate to criticize a corporation for shortsighted actions spurred by greed at the cost of loyalty. I make no claim either way as to WotC's intentions, only that fervent opinions are often voiced by loyal patrons. Passersby do not care enough to take time out and share opinions either way.


I agree, well said. However, I must respectfully disagree.

The companies most important role is to make money for the shareholders of that company...now I agree that quality is the way to go on that and honestly, with the topic on the Dragon and Dungeon online magazines, I firmly believe the quality is there. In fact I believe it has improved.

Now I firmly believe WOTC responded to the D&D players and DM's out there who were complaining about 3.5e. It was getting out of hand. DM's and players alike were having difficulity on what rules are what, what feats trump what rules, etc... In fact, I remember participating in two different surveys on my thoughts on 3.5. In both surveys, they asked what our thoughts were on a completely new edition, one that allows for easier expansion. I would have to assume, the majority responded (of those who cared to respond) of an easier edition. Hense 4e.

Now I would have been just as happy to see a 3.75 edition that combines many books and would have been happy to spend the $100 plus per book that it would have probably cost. I loved 3.5 and miss it. But after playing 4e, i can see how easy it is to expand and feel it will be better.

So, I guess I have to say, based on your quote that a primary responsibility is to provide a useful quality product or service, WOTC did and is trying to fulfill its duty to its shareholders: make money.

Now if they could make some of there other games better, that would be great. I would suspect they are planning to do something with Star Wars since I was given a survey about that.

Greylond
10-25-2008, 07:21 PM
There was a time that Dragon magazine had more than just D&D(or AD&D) material in it. It had good short fiction, it had articles about minatures(non-game system specific), it had articles about generic GM resources. Yes, it was primarily about AD&D/D&D but it had articles about other game systems also.

Not to mention comics and other "entertainment fluff".

In short, it was a magazine by gamers for gamers. Now, it looks to me like it is specifically marketed toward players of one game system(4E). I just don't see how they can do that long term when they are purposely restricting their potential customer base like that...

Oh well, there are always alternatives... ;)

frank634
10-26-2008, 08:31 AM
There was a time that Dragon magazine had more than just D&D(or AD&D) material in it. It had good short fiction, it had articles about minatures(non-game system specific), it had articles about generic GM resources. Yes, it was primarily about AD&D/D&D but it had articles about other game systems also.

Not to mention comics and other "entertainment fluff".

In short, it was a magazine by gamers for gamers. Now, it looks to me like it is specifically marketed toward players of one game system(4E). I just don't see how they can do that long term when they are purposely restricting their potential customer base like that...

Oh well, there are always alternatives... ;)

Now to that point I will concede. If you were getting Dragon Magazine for articals other then for D & D, I would agree, it would be almost useless. As you said, there are alternatives.

Grimwell
10-26-2008, 01:28 PM
I'd love to get involved with your game, grimwell, and vise versa. If i wasnt moving in the within the next few months, i would endeavor to get involved asap.

What??? Details are mandatory. PM if needed. :confused:

(I hope it's for a new job and massive $$$ or something like that)

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-26-2008, 01:40 PM
What??? Details are mandatory. PM if needed. :confused:

(I hope it's for a new job and massive $$$ or something like that)
Long and short of it: Yes, new job and $$$ did factor in, as well as family, change of pace and scenery, and a new locale, all attributed to the decision.

Between your campaign, my campaigning group, and a Traveller group(both GURPS & CT) in Redlands, i will miss this area.

Other than mentioned above, there really isnt any benefit or reason for me to stay.

Side note: got a great 1988 corvette(looks/runs great) for sale/trade or combination of the two. Anyone interested? I'm needing something smaller and more economical. Wouldnt want the :mad:evil environmentalist wackos! firebombing it up there. LOL ;)

MortonStromgal
10-26-2008, 11:14 PM
/tangent on


Long and short of it: Yes, new job and $$$ did factor in, as well as family, change of pace and scenery, and a new locale, all attributed to the decision.

Between your campaign, my campaigning group, and a Traveller group(both GURPS & CT) in Redlands, i will miss this area.

Other than mentioned above, there really isnt any benefit or reason for me to stay.

Side note: got a great 1988 corvette(looks/runs great) for sale/trade or combination of the two. Anyone interested? I'm needing something smaller and more economical. Wouldnt want the :mad:evil environmentalist wackos! firebombing it up there. LOL ;)

Oregon? cus you don't have to worry about the environmentalist wackos in Washngton State anymore... The Californians drove them out... I still can't believe how many Californians keep moving here! We might end up with a republican as Governor which I can't remember us ever voting red... ever. Heck we voted for Ducacus.

/tangent off

Arch Lich Thoth-Amon
10-26-2008, 11:42 PM
/tangent on



Oregon? cus you don't have to worry about the environmentalist wackos in Washngton State anymore... The Californians drove them out... I still can't believe how many Californians keep moving here! We might end up with a republican as Governor which I can't remember us ever voting red... ever. Heck we voted for Ducacus.

/tangent off
Arrrrrrnolllllld is on his last term down here. You should write him and see if he'd run up there. LOL

Duckakus huh? Never met a Ducakus(?) voter. Glad to meet you.

Yeah, moving to the Bay Area in the next 6 weeks, maybe sooner... hopefully.

I'd love to move to Oregon or Washington, perhaps one day. I've lived and travelled throughout the country. Favorite states so far, Virginia and Texas. But to be fair, ive never lived in a place that didnt have its unique charm. I get wanderlust and like to move from time to time. My ex and still friend says it's because i have yet to find "home." Perhaps she's right, perhaps Washington, who knows.

Talmek
11-21-2008, 11:51 PM
I'm still unsure as to whether or not I will utilize D&D Insider. Actually, I hadn't even considered it until I caught the new core books on eBay for cheap. Now that I have them inbound, I'll have to read them before I can pass judgement on whether or not I'll use them in a campaign.

It really depends on the quality/price aspect of it for me. If it show itself to be useful, then I'll get it. If not...I won't.

Simple.

WhtZombie
12-05-2008, 05:06 PM
I took a chance and bit on the one year subscription. So far no regrets, the char builder is very nice and I look forward the updates.

Histati
12-11-2008, 06:49 PM
If I do subscribe it would be for the whole package. I'm really interested in the game table. on the web page it says coming soon BS at this rate it woun't be out till next Sep or something.:mad:

commonperson
12-29-2008, 02:47 PM
Print is unfortunately a dead medium (look at Ziff-Davies who have pretty much closed all their gaming publications and rolled them in to their 1up site.) Sadly this seems to be the way of the future, with large companies like Hasbro basicaly calling the shots Dungeon and Dragon don't turn enough profit to remain viable to a large corporation like that. It leaves us with little choice. I'm going to pay but not until all features of the Dungeons and Dragons Insider site are up and running and even then I may not maintain my subscription if it doesn't pay off as being worth it. We'll see, it's a lot of potential but it's also potentialy a big waste.

Skunkape
12-31-2008, 01:27 PM
The companies most important role is to make money for the shareholders of that company...now I agree that quality is the way to go on that and honestly, with the topic on the Dragon and Dungeon online magazines, I firmly believe the quality is there. In fact I believe it has improved.

Very good point, but if the company doesn't make something the consumer wishes to purchase, then the company has failed that very important role. My point with the Dungeon & Dragon magazines, I'm not interested in an online version of them, so they no longer get my money.

So in that capacity for me, they have failed. If the company continues to function and make money, then they have succeeded with enough consumers to succeed with that role, if the company closes, well, then they have failed. Only time will tell if they have succeeded enough or not.