Alignment languages, yea or nea?

[ChaunceyK]

I've never liked the idea of alignment languages. The idea that every intelligent being in the known world of D&D should share the same language based on whether they're naughty, nice, or in-between? I just don't like it, it doesn't make sense to me.

The idea of all Rogues (my thief doesn't like the term Thief) sharing a common language and/or gestures makes sense to me...they are considered by most to be outcasts of society, so for them to develop a common means of communication is ok in my book.

Opinions?

[kirksmithicus]

I agree with you on both counts, but I would require him to take Thieves cant as a language skill. After all it is the language of organized criminals or rogues. Not all petty criminals, bandits or highwaymen would be privy to such information.

[Stormhound]

Totally agreed on alignment languages. The closest I'd ever want to come to that would be religious "languages", more a set of code words and such known by the faithful of a particular deity. That, at least, makes sense, especially if worshippers of that deity are persecuted in some area.

Thieves' Cant (but it's fun watching them try, bada-boom) is prone to regional variations, which I'd be willing to employ in a campaign spanning a wide range of territory.

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

Also agree on both counts. I would also consider Thieves Cant as an organized language.

[ChaunceyK]

So that's three in agreement with me, and none so far that think Alignment Languages was ever a good idea.

I've been out of the D&D Rules loop for around 20 years now, are Alignment Languages still part of the rulebook? If not, when were they removed? And if they are still part of it, does anyone use them?

Another reason I hated them was because when I was DM'ing for a short time, the players quickly figured out the trick of speaking to an NPC in all 3 alignment tongues, trying to figure which one he was. If he refused to answer or just played stupid, they pretty much knew he was evil & had bad intentions for them.

[nijineko]

nope, alignment languages went the way that alignments should have. ^^ i always liked the idea of alignment languages, myself. although i would limit them by race and by region both. on the other hand, i do not see them as a need in any way, just interesting flavor for religious types, and a great way to insult each others beliefs in a clerical debate / combat smackdown.

interestingly enough, while such vocabulary does exist in the real world such a language per se, does not... although spanish and portugese have the lion's share of words that apply to the judaeo-christian segment of the belief spectrum. ^^

[DMMike]

Alignment languages are a great idea, provided you have a plane of existence on which each language can be common. Kind of makes sense really, at least for the Lawful planes to have a single language throughout.

Otherwise, alignment is very close to being a meta-game concept, and as such, shouldn't have direct correlations with anything in-game. E.g. a paladin doesn't acknowledge being "lawful good" so much as acknowledge being a "champion of righteousness."

[Webhead]

Blech! Alignment Languages were a terrible idea and I never felt any desire to include them in my game. The fact that all intelligent beings of the same moral persuasion can communicate fluently with one another is ridiculous. And what if your character changes alignment during the game? Does he suddenly "forget" how to communicate in his old tongue and instantly understand the new one?

Maybe not the worst idea to come out of D&D (we do have almost 35 years of history to draw from) but definately one of the most nonsensical.

[fmitchell]

Yet another vote away from alignment languages.

Languages only remain intact if a) there's a sufficient community learning it, and b) if said community keeps in constant contact. Otherwise, the language will either decay and die, or split.

Thieves' Cant makes a sort of sense, if there's a significant underworld, and there's enough communication between cities to make it fairly standard. (As an aside, a number of slang terms came from Romani, the language of Eastern-European Gypsies. For example, knack is from "nak", nose; "pal" is from "pral", brother. So a community of Travelers in a fantasy campaign might carry both information and a "common" rogues' language.)

Similarly, a liturgical language, particularly shared among several related gods and religions, makes sense if either the gods and their messengers speak it, or the religion itself continues to use a particular mortal language for religious purposes. In the real world, we have Latin (now dead) for Roman Catholicism, Hebrew (once dead, now revived) for Judaism, classical Arabic (still alive if a little changed) for Islam, etc. In a fantasy world, a religious language could be virtually extinct, spoken in only one land, or widely spoken. The gods may have taught it, the prophets may have written in it, or the empire that spread the religion may have spoken it even though the original texts and legends came from other lands (e.g. the original Greek and Hebrew sources for the Christian Bible, translated into Latin during Roman times and thence into nearly every language during the Reformation).

BUT: a D&D alignment isn't the same as a religion. D&D generally assumes every god has his own particular religion or cult, when in the real world members of polytheistic societies often prayed to whatever god cared most about their petition, and sometimes had the same priests for every orthodox god. Conversely, large religions (especially the monotheistic ones) provide a common house for which different moral and ethical philosophies can coexist more-or-less peacefully. In practice, the same priest that offers sacrifices to the God of Justice (LG) could also sacrifice to the Goddess of Love (CG, or even CN) ... assuming there isn't one god and one hierarchy for the Order of St. Smitesalot (LG), the Order of St. Loveandpeace (CG), and the Order of St. Wordislaw (LN). It's even possible that the Supreme God of the Bigendians isn't recognized by the Little-endians, who follow only their All-Mother, and vice versa.

Which is a long-winded way to say that an "alignment language", known to *all* members of an alignment and *only* to members of an alignment, is pretty silly.

[Grumpy Old Man]

I haven't used an alignment language in 20 years, nobody ever brought it up and I never thought about it. I have enough problems with inglis although my characters don't seem to have any problem learning racial languages. If only it were that easy.

[Kalanth]

I have played for 23 years now and have to say I never even heard of this idea. Who in there right mind would restrict a language based on alignment? Availability, knowledge of the language? Sure, but alignment? :confused:

[Webhead]

I have played for 23 years now and have to say I never even heard of this idea. Who in there right mind would restrict a language based on alignment? Availability, knowledge of the language? Sure, but alignment? :confused:

I've only known Alignment Languages to exist in Basic D&D. I've never seen any mention of them in AD&D or any later edition...which is just as well.

I like Basic D&D (probably more than all other editions), but Alignment Languages are something that I simply ignore.

[Grimwell]

I used them when they were there, but twisted them so they made more sense to me. Alignment languages as I implemented them were not a full blown language that folks would use to have deep private conversations, but were instead inflections, innuendo, and even nonverbal elements that only people of a particular leaning would easily understand.

As a modern world analogy, look back at the growth of the Internet in the 90's. Teaching people netiquette and what all these parenthesis things were about had to be done because it wasn't intuitive. If you were a computer geek and did hard time in college on Usenet or a BBS you knew what was up, but if not -- it seemed alien.

Or, for a more current example, look at online games and the phrases that cropped up around them. DOT means something to me... does it mean anything to you? Damage Over Time... but even to gamers it can be a bit odd.

I can stand in a conversation and talk about how my buddy didn't help our group all that much because he wasn't pulling his DPS as high as he should have, so he was not high enough on the aggro list to keep the hate off me. I'm planning on cutting his DKP if his performance does not improve.

Ok, so maybe you can read through that and get the jist of it, even if you aren't a MMO gamer... but average folks would be google eyed on it.

Which is how I treated alignment languages. Chaotic Evil people pick up on the queue when another person indicates that he'd like to kill the merchant they are both talking to. The merchant wouldn't pick up on it, but would feel as odd as most of us do when we are standing near folks who aren't speaking in a language we understand.

[Grimwell]

Oh! ...and for the record, I think life is better without them anyway. :)

[tesral]

Alignment Laguna's is on of the few ideas worse than alignment itself. One of the really bad ideas that tSR came up with. A real, what were they smoking moment.

They never got used in my game, just too stupid to live.

Thieves' Cant. I don't consider it a language. It is a slang at best. It is going to not only vary from language to language but city to city and if the city is big enough, gang to gang. It is a use of common words and phrases to discuss business without being understood, and to not raise attention to what you are saying. It changes quickly. Six months out of town and a thief can return to find their vocabulary obsolete. Terms evolve as the authorities learn various terms and they are passed from use and replaced by something the heat doesn't know. A guard might be a "cur" this year and two years later a "sharper", later still a "bonehead".

"Billy the Wit wants for us to get the sugar from the straight man down on Waterway."
"What about the boneheads he greases?"
"Word is they ain't gonna have eyes tonight, we're pat."
"I'm in."

[Valdar]

Which is how I treated alignment languages. Chaotic Evil people pick up on the queue when another person indicates that he'd like to kill the merchant they are both talking to. The merchant wouldn't pick up on it, but would feel as odd as most of us do when we are standing near folks who aren't speaking in a language we understand.

Interesting- more of an empathy than a language-



"Billy the Wit wants for us to get the sugar from the straight man down on Waterway."
"What about the boneheads he greases?"
"Word is they ain't gonna have eyes tonight, we're pat."
"I'm in."

That was pretty cool.

In my current game, I have something similar- not a language that everyone of an alignment speaks, but a language that you cannot understand if you are not of that alignment- in this case, High Fiendish, which cannot be understood or spoken by Good or Unaligned people (i.e. PCs). The idea was that they will have to interact with an NPC to get the clue they found translated... We're still new to the game, so evil NPCs are still grist for the XP mill, but hopefully they'll get to it eventually...

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

Alignment Laguna's is on of the few ideas worse than alignment itself. One of the really bad ideas that tSR came up with. A real, what were they smoking moment.

They never got used in my game, just too stupid to live.

Thieves' Cant. I don't consider it a language. It is a slang at best. It is going to not only vary from language to language but city to city and if the city is big enough, gang to gang. It is a use of common words and phrases to discuss business without being understood, and to not raise attention to what you are saying. It changes quickly. Six months out of town and a thief can return to find their vocabulary obsolete. Terms evolve as the authorities learn various terms and they are passed from use and replaced by something the heat doesn't know. A guard might be a "cur" this year and two years later a "sharper", later still a "bonehead".

"Billy the Wit wants for us to get the sugar from the straight man down on Waterway."
"What about the boneheads he greases?"
"Word is they ain't gonna have eyes tonight, we're pat."
"I'm in."
I completely disagree. Thieves Cant is a form of communication only taught to members of a Guild. If it were slang, then everyone could understand it therefore rendering it useless.

[ChaunceyK]

I liken Thieves' Cant to the old (real-life) days of speaking Carney...vaguely similar to pig-latin...when traveling carnival members had their own modified language & gestures to get over on the local marks.

[boulet]

I completely disagree. Thieves Cant is a form of communication only taught to members of a Guild. If it were slang, then everyone could understand it therefore rendering it useless.
Well one definition of slang is (Thesaurus) :

4.the special vocabulary of thieves, vagabonds, etc.; argot.The problem with argot and slang is that the bad boy is cool and fascinates. So the once "happy few" dialect becomes more transparent to main stream culture. But originally the idea is to be able to discuss taboo subjects without raising an eyebrow. For this reason, slang vocabularies are particularly rich in certain domains, such as violence, crime, drugs, and sex.

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

One has nothng to do with the other, in my book. Just because criminals and thieves use slang, doesnt mean that Theives Cant is slang. Now, i would say that thieves use slang yet know a particular language only known to the initiated into a guild, aka Thieves Cant.

[Grimwell]

Just remember that there is no "right" answer for what Thieves Cant, or any other language is in your game...

[boulet]

In French argot is clearly a criminal jargon that used to be secret and enabled criminals to talk in some obscure way even in presence of police officers. Over time law enforcement learned argot, just because it's a necessity for infiltration. Society in general learned argot by ways of crime novels and popular songs. When the need for another secret jargon would be strong enough then a new dialect would appear; it is the case of verlan (another slang creating vocabulary by shuffling syllables). But eventually, if the new jargon is used by a significant number of people, it may be incorporated by main stream culture as well. The whole process seems like a language life cycle with births, deaths and sometimes cannibalism.

Thieves Cant is a slang in its early development, before it reaches a critical mass when it bursts in the open and loses the secrecy factor. I can't be categorical about English slang, but I think it's a similar phenomenon in every language. So for RPG concerns, sure one can distinguish Thieves Cant as a language of its own, and even create a different one for different guilds, regions, nations etc... Some GMs prefer to simplify all this by considering that a skill like streetwise is covering every aspects of downtown life and meddling with criminals.

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

Just remember that there is no "right" answer for what Thieves Cant, or any other language is in your game...
Sure there is. In *my* game, Thieves Cant *is* a language, and not slang. In others games, that would be up to the DM. This is why i used the phrase "in my book."

[tesral]

I completely disagree. Thieves Cant is a form of communication only taught to members of a Guild. If it were slang, then everyone could understand it therefore rendering it useless.

Does everyone understand a slang? Not really that is the point of slang, so only the people on the in get it. We have slang terms that have entered the general lexicon, but i assure you, to the "in crowd" those terms are as cool as five day old fish.

I point out that a language is learnable as well. Comprehend languages makes trying to have a secret language pointless. However the coded use of an existing language is another matter. Law enforcement geeking to the cant is one reason it would change frequently. A language doesn't develop that quickly.

I would also point out that knowing such a language would mark you as one of the criminal class. So the cant could be turned as a weapon against it's speakers. A locality could outlaw cant speakers that do not possess a license (for their own people) so knowing the language could be a death sentence. It is much harder to police the repurposing of existing words. And that repurpose can be quickly changed to other words. "Sugar" become too obvious meaning loot? Then loot becomes chill, or down, or slick.

The opposing example is the Navajo codetalkers. Even then an understanding of the Navajo language would not give you a clean understanding of the code. In the hotrhouse of war, breaking a language is more difficult that breaking a code, but breaking a coded language more difficult still. That code is still secret BTW.

However the city watch is not in a hot house. They have time to get someone inside and learn what needs to be learned. Something as fixed as a language would be a mark of, and a detriment to the guilds that use it.

Your board, your wave, but them's the reasons.

[Grimwell]

Sure there is. In *my* game, Thieves Cant *is* a language, and not slang. In others games, that would be up to the DM. This is why i used the phrase "in my book."

Good point, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that. What I meant was exactly what you said -- there aren't any right answers that cover us all, just right answer for our individual games. Sorry about that :redface:

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

Good point, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that. What I meant was exactly what you said -- there aren't any right answers that cover us all, just right answer for our individual games. Sorry about that :redface:
No worries. Thats whats great about DnD. No two games are alike. Btw, cant wait to sit in on one of your games. Hopefully sooner than later.

[Webhead]

Good point, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that. What I meant was exactly what you said -- there aren't any right answers that cover us all, just right answer for our individual games. Sorry about that :redface:

If it's any consolation, I knew exactly what you meant with your original statement. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. :)

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

That's whats great about DnD. I enjoy playing others campaigns, their differing rules, and their take on the DnD world.

[wizarddog]

If you bring back alignment languages, eps in a 3.5 game, then you need mechanics on if you can learn another alignment language. The cool thing about assassins in 1e was they could learn another alignment language!

Now I always considered the Celestial, Abysmal, Infernal, Draconic, etc languages as replacements for the alignment languages as they deal with the Planes and ultimately with alignments. And 3.5 does have mechanics in the skills to talk in code for thieves cant so you don't have to have a complete language.

[nijineko]

while i can see some points to them, i myself doubt that there is enough to make an entire language about each philosophy. a dialect, maybe. like wise with cant. really though, i haven't used them and never missed them, so maybe it's more nostalgia than anything.

[cplmac]

...The opposing example is the Navajo codetalkers. Even then an understanding of the Navajo language would not give you a clean understanding of the code. In the hotrhouse of war, breaking a language is more difficult that breaking a code, but breaking a coded language more difficult still. That code is still secret BTW...

Very true! The Navajo codetalkers were never able to be decoded by anyone. That is what made a very large impact in the victory that our nation was part of.

As for alignment languages, I also never liked them and do not use them. I do however use Thieve's Cant in my games, but not everyone is able to "learn" this. I don't so much consider it as an actual language than as a means for mostly those of a certain group (Theives and Rogues) to be able to communicate without everyone else being able to understand what they are talking about.

[nijineko]

The opposing example is the Navajo codetalkers. Even then an understanding of the Navajo language would not give you a clean understanding of the code. In the hotrhouse of war, breaking a language is more difficult that breaking a code, but breaking a coded language more difficult still. That code is still secret BTW.

i do believe that the last codetalker just passed away a few years ago.

[Greylond]

Also never liked Alignment languages. Glad to be rid of them officially in 2nd Edition AD&D.

Thieves Cant though I love. I once found an electronic copy of a book from the 17th century about the Cant of the underworld and it pretty much said the same thing of it being more or less a slang. Years ago in a Dragon Magazine there was a English/Cant dictionary published so that you could take it out of the center of the magazin and fold it into a little mini-book.