Throwing out the magic system and restarting

[ignimbrite]

Hi everyone, in response to my own ruminating about the D&D magic system and how hard it is for a new player to play a spellcaster I've kinda put together the following as an easier and more imagination-based magic system. It is supposed to be used in D&D (hence terms like DC and spellcraft checks) but I suppose it could be used in different systems with some tweaks.

Inspiration:
In most fantasy genre books and movies (particularly LOTR) using magic is difficult and it takes a large toll on the caster BUT they can do some pretty funky stuff with just simple concepts.

So I designed a system that only has 8 "spells" and two classes.

Base mechanic:
1. Cast an unlimited number of spells per day and there is no save against magic.
2. Casting more than one spell per encounter (or minute if you prefer) requires a Concentration check. The base DC is 20 and it increases by 3 per spell cast in that encounter.
3. (Optional to simulate the stress of casting spells) each spell cast during a day reduces the CON of the caster by 1.

Classes (I have actually fleshed out these classes but that is a different thread):
Mage - a selfish spellcaster that requires a material focus (like an orb or wand or staff) to cast spells
Witch - a selfless spellcaster that requires a living focus (animal familiar) to cast spells

Spells:
I took the 8 schools from D&D and tried to come up with 8 "spells", one per school.
Each "spell" has an inherently selfish interpretation and a selfless interpretation. Mages are good at selfish interpretations, witches are good at selfless interpretations.
If a mage wants to cast a selfless interpretation he has to succeed on a DC 20 Spellcraft check, visa versa for a witch.

OK brace yourself:
Damage/Healing – Evocation
• Area effect is d4 (5’ radius/level), ranged touch is d6 (5’ distance/level) and touch is d8
• Healing poisons and diseases would be a Spellcraft check vs. DC of the disease or poison
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast healing and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast damage

Resistance/Armour – Abjuration
• Increase armour class or resistance to damage by caster level
• Spellcraft check basic DC 15; 1 round +0; rounds/level +5; minutes/level +10; hours/level +15; days/level +20
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast armour and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast resistance

Debuff/Buff – Transmutation
• Temporarily change a single stat by caster level/2 (rounded up)
• Spellcraft check basic DC 15; 1 round +0; rounds/level +5; minutes/level +10; hours/level +15; days/level +20
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast buff and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast debuff

Bring/Send – Conjuration
• Opposed spellcaster checks; DC of finding something increases with distance: -5 in same room, 0 in same building, +5 in same city, +10 on same continent, +15 on another continent; DC changes with size of object -2 per category smaller than medium and +2 per category larger than medium
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast send and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast bring

Hide/Find – Divination
• Opposed spellcaster checks; DC of finding something increases with distance -5 in same room, 0 in same building, +5 in same city, +10 on same continent, +15 on another continent
• If it is not opposing spellcasters then it is a spellcraft check vs. Search or Hide
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast find and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast hide

Fixate/Release – Enchantment
• Spellcraft check basic DC 15; 1 round +0; rounds/level +5; minutes/level +10; hours/level +15; days/level +20
• Opposed spellcaster checks
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast release and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast fixate

Change reality/Pierce illusion – Illusion
• Ability to change reality in someone’s head or to snap them out of it
• Spellcraft check basic DC 15 with many factors:
• Range of target: within short range +0; short-medium +5; medium-long +10
• Size: 10’ cubed +0; 50’ cubed +10; 100’ cubed +15; 1000’ cubed +20
• Duration: 1 round +0; rounds/level +5; minutes/level +10; hours/level +15; days/level +20
• Divergence: small changes to decor etc +0; walls etc +5; creating empty spaces +10; changing environment +15; drastic alterations +20
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast pierce illusion and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast change reality

Create/Destroy undead – Necromancy
• Create or destroy undead with total HD less than caster level
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast destroy undead and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast create undead

OK so hopefully the enormous power of these spells is evident, particularly because there is no save - unless a friendly caster wants to try and save you. The spells are designed to be limited only by the players creativity and should be able to cover almost every spell in the PHB. Additionally, it is kinda meant to scale to the point that a level 20 mage can convince someone that they are no longer sitting in a cottage but are falling through the central vent of an active volcano. Personally I think that the illusion spell might be a little overpowered but then a friendly caster can snap you out of it so ....

Thoughts, questions, constructive criticism are extremely welcome as I would actually like to try this system out on my group once I've ironed the wrinkles out a bit.

[nijineko]

interesting take. i'll have to read it several times and ruminate over it before i could give a reasoned response.

[tesral]

I'm with Nijinkeo. I think I would have to ruminate on it. In several cases (buff/debuff) I am not seeing the selfish/selfless angle. Why couldn't the Wizard buff themselves for example. You might want to consider a change in terms, perhaps positive/negative.

I wouldn't make the spells automatic. The target should get something, either a defense class or something.

I think you have the start of an interesting idea that needs a good deal of development. It might work with some genres of fantasy quite well.

[DMMike]

That's easier for a new player?

Go with subdual damage instead of CON damage for simulating stress. Maybe throw Fatigued in there somewhere.

The living focus concept sounds pretty cool.

Make sure your static DCs (like 20 for a mage casting a selfless spell) wouldn't be better served by a scaling number.

[Arch Lich Thoth-Amon]

Have you test-played it yet, ignimbrite? I have found that the best way to flush out weaknesses is to test play new ideas. Besides, having a group of trusty experienced friends to assist you in testing something new has definite advantages.

Thoth-Amon

[ignimbrite]

That's easier for a new player?

Go with subdual damage instead of CON damage for simulating stress. Maybe throw Fatigued in there somewhere.

The living focus concept sounds pretty cool.

Make sure your static DCs (like 20 for a mage casting a selfless spell) wouldn't be better served by a scaling number.

Awesome comments, I'll try to address them all before lunch.

:) I think it would be a little easier for new players because the DM would be in charge of adjudicating the DCs etc. I think it is more storytelling the magic and then the DM says roll your Spellcraft and then checks to see if they beat the DC. The player does not have to constantly look up what the range, damage and saves etc each spell in their arsenal is or flip through the PHB comparing between horrid wilting and delayed blast fireball to see which is more appropriate for the situation, they just say "I want to use an area effect damage spell"

Alright and the stress thing ... yes I have been thinking of using fatigue/exhaustion/unconscious for failing successive the Concentration Checks.
But I think that subdual is too wimpy. How much would you apply per spell? There are no spell levels so you can't say 1 subdual point per spell level ...

Cheers for the living focus. Once I decided to call the selfless caster a witch, instead of a cleric, the idea of a witches cat just kinda clicked. And it was the opposite of the mage's inanimate focus.

Mmm static DCs: So the reason I went with a static DC was I figured that there should be some benefit to learning more about your art. The more magic and 'spellcraft' you learn shouldn't that make casting spells easier, rather than always having it at a 50 or 25% success rate? I kinda liked the idea of an apprentice mage having a hard time casting heal, but for a master mage it wouldn't be such a big deal.
I want to make casting the opposite spell effect difficult, but not impossible, without generating a whole bunch extra math. You could do DC 20+1 per caster level ..

selfish/selfless terminology: yeah I know I had to pick some sort of a name and it doesn't work for every spell. You could say that debuff is not selfless, therefore buffing is more selfless. It is tenuous, I know. I am not sure that positive/negative work for some spells either resistance/armour and bring/send aren't really positive or negative ...

And finally play testing. Sigh, I wish I could play test it. I do a lot of fieldwork in the Yukon during the summer, which is great for downtime to think of these ideas, but it is terrible for actually gaming and play testing stuff. In the winter I might get around to it, I think it needs a little polishing first though. Which is why I came to you guys.

[nijineko]

i have a modified system you might like to peruse, but i need to polish the wording up before tossing it around here.

the basic idea, however is that there are no spells. players describe what they want, and then compare those effects to the quantifed effects maximum per level table that comes with it.

[DMMike]

:) I think it would be a little easier for new players because the DM would be in charge of adjudicating the DCs etc. I think it is more storytelling the magic and then the DM says roll your Spellcraft and then checks to see if they beat the DC. The player does not have to constantly look up what the range, damage and saves etc each spell in their arsenal is or flip through the PHB comparing between horrid wilting and delayed blast fireball to see which is more appropriate for the situation, they just say "I want to use an area effect damage spell"

Duly noted. Alright, I'll grant it's easier for new players. Possibly murder on the DM though. Unless you can make a simple cheat sheet, every spell will take a minute just for the DM to figure out a DC. And if he tries to fudge it, the system opens up to power abuse, probably on the player's side.

The changing DC levels reminded me of truenaming from Tome of Magic. If you haven't already, check out the truename magic system, and check out the Fundamentals portion of shadow magic. Truenaming has DCs that increase based on your enemy's CR, and fundamentals are supernatural cantrips you can cast 3 times per day. They might be good for power balance comparisons.

Also, for balance purposes, you might want to look at how the sorceror changed from the wizard. The sorceror gained the ability to shape a spell (into limited shapes) at will, but it lost an entire spell level (casting spells a wizard could cast one level later) and the wizard's additional feats. The ability to shape a spell completely at will represents pretty significant magical power, so there should be an equally heavy (and opposite) counterbalance.

[ignimbrite]

cheers DMMike I'll have a poke around those books. And I understand that the adjudicating of DCs is pretty time consuming (without a detailed cheat sheet) but they are more guidelines anyway, I was trying for storytelling flavour magic rather than hardcore mechnis magic.

nijineko I would love to see another attempt at revamping the magic system, pretty sure all the necessary contact info is on my profile.

[ronpyatt]

Looks good. The lack of saving throws is nice. I like where you're going with this.

[nijineko]

i'll try to get it up here when i can.

[tesral]

Cheers for the living focus. Once I decided to call the selfless caster a witch, instead of a cleric, the idea of a witches cat just kinda clicked. And it was the opposite of the mage's inanimate focus.

And finally play testing. Sigh, I wish I could play test it. I do a lot of fieldwork in the Yukon during the summer, which is great for downtime to think of these ideas, but it is terrible for actually gaming and play testing stuff. In the winter I might get around to it, I think it needs a little polishing first though. Which is why I came to you guys.


AISI you are dealing with two things. One effect gives (selfless) one effect takes (selfish) Except that all your effects don't. Needs work, and I personally would look for a less morally loaded terminology lest it flavor the play of the game.

Playtesting is a must. All system will have kinks and flaws that you will not see until you play with them for a while.

[ignimbrite]

AISI you are dealing with two things. One effect gives (selfless) one effect takes (selfish) Except that all your effects don't. Needs work, and I personally would look for a less morally loaded terminology lest it flavor the play of the game.

Playtesting is a must. All system will have kinks and flaws that you will not see until you play with them for a while.

Yeah I see the terminology problem. I started using a different term "ego" ("I" or "me" in latin, no?) for the mages but them I couldn't figure out a good one for the witches.
How would intrinsic and extrinsic magic work?

I will be playtesting it as soon as I get back to civilisation. The most broken thing I can think of is the no save aspect, but then if I balance it with the -1 CON per spell cast I think it might stop trigger happy mages running around. Or else every mage will have a CON of 18 :)

[tesral]

Yeah I see the terminology problem. I started using a different term "ego" ("I" or "me" in Latin, no?) for the mages but them I couldn't figure out a good one for the witches.
How would intrinsic and extrinsic magic work?

It is less morally loaded. It is more descriptive of what you are doing.


I will be playtesting it as soon as I get back to civilization. The most broken thing I can think of is the no save aspect, but then if I balance it with the -1 CON per spell cast I think it might stop trigger happy mages running around. Or else every mage will have a CON of 18 :)

I would want some manner of resistance, rolled either by the target or the mage/witch.

If you tie it to Con damage I assure you that magic users with 18 Cons will abound.

What flavor are you looking for? literary content here.

[ronpyatt]

Resistance is important, but I get the impression you're trying to avoid saves. Well, the spellcraft check is basically your attack roll anyway. Tweak that if you find spells too effective.

After a re-reading, this system feels more like magic in a fantasy story. It would seem appropriate to your system that breaking a spell would be more along the lines of something in game; where it is the character's deeds, minor quests, or some counter magic (mundane or otherwise) that breaks the spell.

Providing common remedies to spell effects could balance this. Toadstool powder to reveal the nature of an illusion. Salt to banish a summoned creature. You could really have fun with all the lore attached to the spells. Chewing on a silver coin to bring back your eyesight.

Then again, I may just be reading too much into this.

[ignimbrite]

Resistance is important, but I get the impression you're trying to avoid saves. Well, the spellcraft check is basically your attack roll anyway. Tweak that if you find spells too effective.

After a re-reading, this system feels more like magic in a fantasy story. It would seem appropriate to your system that breaking a spell would be more along the lines of something in game; where it is the character's deeds, minor quests, or some counter magic (mundane or otherwise) that breaks the spell.

Providing common remedies to spell effects could balance this. Toadstool powder to reveal the nature of an illusion. Salt to banish a summoned creature. You could really have fun with all the lore attached to the spells. Chewing on a silver coin to bring back your eyesight.

Then again, I may just be reading too much into this.

No no this is exactly the kind of stuff I wanted the thread to generate.

So testral the system is heavily influenced by Lord of the Rings. People like Gandalf and Galadriel don't run around tossing off fireballs with reckless abandon. The magic these guys use is powerful (e.g. turning back the nazguls or smiting balrogs) but taxing and consequently infrequent. There are other books I've read (including one that mages need human 'catalysts' to feed them the energy to cast spells) and most of the books have magic as an infrequently used but powerful tool.

Mmmm maybe making spellcraft checks could be used in lieu of saves kind of like rolling an attack... have to think about that a bit more.

I like the idea of having alchemical reagents that can counter the spells. It makes Craft alchemy so much more useful. Love the idea of ground up dried mushrooms combating illusion spells :D

Just a thought: how about having the spells be auto effective unless a remedy is applied and then either have a spellcraft check or an actual save be allowed?

Tee hee all of a sudden every mage or witch is a gnome because of the +2 CON. No elf mages or witches. It would turn some of the usual race stereotypes upside down.

[tesral]

Crafting. Magical items would be important. Mostly in the wards and bonus department if you are looking for that feel.

Ditch anything with the splashy effects.

You might consider schools of differing magics. The Intristic/extristic casters are casters. You could also have people that imbue objects with various properties. Make other races particularity good at those things. Building something like Rivendale doesn't take splashy magic, but magic is in it. Trade Con for time. Incantations said over the making process, special materials. The effects don't even have to be in game terms. It could simply be how you get a stone trellis that size in one piece and looking so light an airy.

[nijineko]

chinese lore is rich in examples of various "common" reagents used to counter magic. it is held that the urine of a virgin when drunk can counter domination, possession, and magical burn-out from over-casting. it also seems effacious for countering illusions, if sprinkled upon them in some fashion. you can imagine the kind of slapstick this generates in chinese fantasy flicks....

i've flipped through a chinese text on the magical properties of herbs and various other "natural" substances. some of them are pretty out there.



as far as that magic system goes, the basic concept is that spells are grouped by what effect they can have. the level system is convenient, but not strictly necessary. so level one spells can affect something up to this range, this much weight, do this much damage, and so forth. the amount of effect that can be achieved is what is defined. the higher levels have greater effect.

a player decides on what effects they are trying to acheive, quantifies that, and then you look up on the handy card what level allows that much quantified effect. this allows complete descriptive and creative freedom, while still tying the system to the existing structure of the game.

as described this system aptly handles physical magics, but not mental or social ones. i resolved this by adding some colomns to my chart, quantifying general effects as per charms and dominations based on the level of the target vs the level of the effect.

most unfortunately, i do not have the chart. i will have to make one if anyone is interested in more details.

[tesral]

as described this system aptly handles physical magics, but not mental or social ones. i resolved this by adding some colomns to my chart, quantifying general effects as per charms and dominations based on the level of the target vs the level of the effect.


Hero has a disconnect that us useful here. You have the game effect xd6 ray energy damage for example. Then you have the special effect, fire splash, lightning bolt, laser beam etc..

This could be useful to consider when a mage/witch designs their effects. Give the rules, and suggestions for possible effects.

[nijineko]

actually there is something of that nature built in. the generic rules i described are for generic casters... specialized casters and semi-casters take on various limitations for greater effect within more narrowly defined descriptions.

according to the generic rules, the player can use any description they please, within the context of the genre and setting. so they could describe the base xd6 damage effect as light, fire, (not laser, unless justified by some background option), heat, lightning... and so on.

again, by default, these descriptions are cosmetic only. i had toyed with an expanded list of common advantages/disadvantages for differing types of effects... but it petered out as it was starting to get rather complicated and long. for example, fire is quenched by water easily, can be smothered or suffocated, but sets things around it alite, and will grow and spread if it has fuel. lightning is attracted to metal, can be grounded, causes static electricity in a large area around it, and conducts along metal and water. etc.

the limitations i mentioned are things which you must do (which can be countered) in order to use your abilities. the most common are somatic-arcane hand gestures, and vocal-magic words.

to use your example, tesral, one type could have a (charm-physical object) based magic, another could have (book-must read from) based magic. or any number of other things. ultimately, as i said earlier, the goal was to grant as much creative and descriptive freedom as possible, while still keeping the effects quantifiable.

[Inquisitor Tremayne]

Looks cool overall, my comments follow below.



Inspiration:
In most fantasy genre books and movies (particularly LOTR) using magic is difficult and it takes a large toll on the caster BUT they can do some pretty funky stuff with just simple concepts.

So I designed a system that only has 8 "spells" and two classes.

I like it so far!



Base mechanic:
1. Cast an unlimited number of spells per day and there is no save against magic.
2. Casting more than one spell per encounter (or minute if you prefer) requires a Concentration check. The base DC is 20 and it increases by 3 per spell cast in that encounter.
3. (Optional to simulate the stress of casting spells) each spell cast during a day reduces the CON of the caster by 1.

Assuming we are using D&D 3.5 rules, I would use the optional rule, #3, if it dealt subdual damage instead. That seems to make more sense than reducing Con, which can kill someone. Like they take 1d4 subdual damage per spell cast beyond the first or beyond x number of spells where x = caster level.



Classes (I have actually fleshed out these classes but that is a different thread):
Mage - a selfish spellcaster that requires a material focus (like an orb or wand or staff) to cast spells
Witch - a selfless spellcaster that requires a living focus (animal familiar) to cast spells


These sound good too, and like everyone else has said I might change the name of Witch to something more PC.



Spells:
I took the 8 schools from D&D and tried to come up with 8 "spells", one per school.
Each "spell" has an inherently selfish interpretation and a selfless interpretation. Mages are good at selfish interpretations, witches are good at selfless interpretations.
If a mage wants to cast a selfless interpretation he has to succeed on a DC 20 Spellcraft check, visa versa for a witch.

I like this idea, and it kind of makes sense.



OK brace yourself:
Damage/Healing – Evocation
• Area effect is d4 (5’ radius/level), ranged touch is d6 (5’ distance/level) and touch is d8
• Healing poisons and diseases would be a Spellcraft check vs. DC of the disease or poison
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast healing and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast damage

Sounds cool. Just off the top of my head you have already made Spellcraft THE most important skill for a caster. Not that it wasn't already but it is quite possible to have rediculously high Spellcraft modifiers even at low levels.



Resistance/Armour – Abjuration
• Increase armour class or resistance to damage by caster level
• Spellcraft check basic DC 15; 1 round +0; rounds/level +5; minutes/level +10; hours/level +15; days/level +20
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast armour and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast resistance

Sounds cool. Same deal with the Spellcraft skill though. Any decent caster is going to have a +10 - +12 at 1st level.



Debuff/Buff – Transmutation
• Temporarily change a single stat by caster level/2 (rounded up)
• Spellcraft check basic DC 15; 1 round +0; rounds/level +5; minutes/level +10; hours/level +15; days/level +20
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast buff and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast debuff

SO far I like that it is all pretty simple and straight forward. As Tesral mentioned, only play-testing will tell.



Bring/Send – Conjuration
• Opposed spellcaster checks; DC of finding something increases with distance: -5 in same room, 0 in same building, +5 in same city, +10 on same continent, +15 on another continent; DC changes with size of object -2 per category smaller than medium and +2 per category larger than medium
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast send and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast bring

Hide/Find – Divination
• Opposed spellcaster checks; DC of finding something increases with distance -5 in same room, 0 in same building, +5 in same city, +10 on same continent, +15 on another continent
• If it is not opposing spellcasters then it is a spellcraft check vs. Search or Hide
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast find and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast hide

Fixate/Release – Enchantment
• Spellcraft check basic DC 15; 1 round +0; rounds/level +5; minutes/level +10; hours/level +15; days/level +20
• Opposed spellcaster checks
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast release and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast fixate

Change reality/Pierce illusion – Illusion
• Ability to change reality in someone’s head or to snap them out of it
• Spellcraft check basic DC 15 with many factors:
• Range of target: within short range +0; short-medium +5; medium-long +10
• Size: 10’ cubed +0; 50’ cubed +10; 100’ cubed +15; 1000’ cubed +20
• Duration: 1 round +0; rounds/level +5; minutes/level +10; hours/level +15; days/level +20
• Divergence: small changes to decor etc +0; walls etc +5; creating empty spaces +10; changing environment +15; drastic alterations +20
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast pierce illusion and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast change reality

Create/Destroy undead – Necromancy
• Create or destroy undead with total HD less than caster level
• Mages need to make a spellcraft check to cast destroy undead and Witches need to make a spellcraft check to cast create undead

I like that they all use the same mechanics, that is A+. The simplicity of them allows the player to roleplay a bit more also and give whatever fitting description they want of the spell that they are casting. A+ to that too.



OK so hopefully the enormous power of these spells is evident, particularly because there is no save - unless a friendly caster wants to try and save you. The spells are designed to be limited only by the players creativity and should be able to cover almost every spell in the PHB. Additionally, it is kinda meant to scale to the point that a level 20 mage can convince someone that they are no longer sitting in a cottage but are falling through the central vent of an active volcano. Personally I think that the illusion spell might be a little overpowered but then a friendly caster can snap you out of it so ....

Thoughts, questions, constructive criticism are extremely welcome as I would actually like to try this system out on my group once I've ironed the wrinkles out a bit.

I might also add the level of the intended target of the illusion spell to the DC of the Spellcraft check. Drop the base DC down to 10 if you do so. And probably add an additional 1d4 subdual damage to the caster when using said spell. So, it keeps illusion as VERY potent and on equal footing with the associated costs.

Since I am playing a wizard currently, the idea of taking potentially 2d4 subdual damage (if using my suggestions) is worth being able to TOTALLY mind-screw my enemy! I would do it!

I think it looks cool and I would like to run a 3.x game and use these rules to see how it worked!

Good job.